This political insider's thriller novels predicted U.S. election interference
2018-04-13 00:00:00


JOHN YANG: Back in 2012, years before Russianmeddling in U.S. elections dominated headlines,(1)
约翰杨:早在2012年,俄罗斯插手美国大选的头几年,

Ohio Democratic Party Chairman David Pepperbegan writing a novel about a foreign country's(2)
俄亥俄民主党主席大卫佩珀开始写一本关于外国的小说

attempts to influence the outcome of an Americanelection.(3)
试图影响美国大选的结果。

That book, "The People's House," was releasedin August 2016.(4)
这本书“人民之家”于2016年8月发布。

Now, he's out with a second book, "The Wingman,"which picks up where "The People's House"(5)
现在,他拿出了第二本书“Wingman”,该书收录了“人民之家”

left off.(6)
离开。

Judy spoke with him recently, and asked howa politician came to write political thrillers.(7)
最近朱迪跟他说话,并问一位政治家是如何写出政治惊悚片的。

DAVID PEPPER, Author, "The Wingman": It wasafter an election cycle where I hadn't won,(8)
DAVID PEPPER,作者,“僚机”:在我没有赢得选举周期之后,

and I ha -- I just had this urging to tryand tell a good political story.(9)
我也是 - 我只是试图说出一个好的政治故事。

And I just started writing, and I just keptwriting.(10)
我刚开始写作,而且我一直在写。

So it wasn't something I had planned on doing,and I had not done creative writing before,(11)
所以这不是我计划做的事情,我之前没有做过创意写作,

but it was a nice outlet for me.(12)
但对我来说这是一个不错的出路。

And I also have always thought there's nota lot of movies out there or books that really(13)
而且我也一直认为那里没有很多电影或真正的书

capture the day-to-day reality of politics.(14)
捕捉政治的日常现实。

A lot of the most famous ones, to someonewho knows a lot, are really unrealistic.(15)
很多最知名的人,对知道很多的人来说,都是不现实的。

So my goal was to tell a political story thatwas really based on how things really work.(16)
所以我的目标是讲述一个真正基于事情真正起作用的政治故事。

JUDY WOODRUFF: So, your first book, "The People'sHouse," comes out in 2016.(17)
JUDY WOODRUFF:所以,你的第一本书“人民之家”于2016年问世。

DAVID PEPPER: Right.(18)
大卫·佩普:对。

JUDY WOODRUFF: And it's all about the Russianstrying to and succeeding in turning a congressional(19)
JUDY WOODRUFF:而这一切都是关于俄罗斯人试图成功改变国会的

election, a midterm election.(20)
选举,中期选举。

DAVID PEPPER: Right.(21)
大卫·佩普:对。

Right.(22)
对。

JUDY WOODRUFF: You didn't have an inklingthat something like that was going to happen?(23)
JUDY WOODRUFF:你没有想到会发生类似的事情吗?

DAVID PEPPER: No, you know, I didn't.(24)
大卫·佩普:不,你知道,我没有。

I put it to bed in the summer.(25)
我在夏天把它放在床上。

And then I got it out there.(26)
然后我把它拿出来了。

And later on, people started writing me, afterthey have read it, like, my gosh, your story(27)
之后,人们在阅读之后开始给我写信,就像我的天哪,你的故事

keeps coming true.(28)
不断实现。

But I didn't write it to predict anything.(29)
但我没有写它来预测任何事情。

My goal was to really capture some of thedeepest problems in our system, things like(30)
我的目标是真正捕捉我们系统中的一些最深层的问题,例如

gerrymandering, things like weak politicalsystems.(31)
gerrymandering,像弱政治系统的东西。

And I happened to have worked in Russia yearsago.(32)
我几年前碰巧在俄罗斯工作过。

And so I had this Russian oligarch who playsthe role.(33)
所以我有这个扮演这个角色的俄罗斯寡头。

But my goal was actually to expose througha thriller a lot of the deepest problems in(34)
但我的目标实际上是通过惊悚片揭露了许多最深层次的问题

our political system that do make us vulnerableto this type of interference.(35)
我们的政治制度确实使我们容易受到这种干扰。

And so I think by trying to be very realisticin the plot, I end up capturing obviously(36)
所以我认为通过在剧情中非常现实,我最终明显地捕捉到了

what ultimately ended up happening, to somedegree.(37)
最终在某种程度上最终发生了什么。

JUDY WOODRUFF: You sure did.(38)
JUDY WOODRUFF:你确实。

And it has turned a lot of heads.(39)
它变成了很多头。

And then the second book, which we're showinghere, "The Wingman," is basically a follow-on(40)
然后我们在这里展示的第二本书“Wingman”基本上是后续的

to that, where the Russians try even greatermischief and get away with a lot of it.(41)
对此,俄罗斯人试图做出更大的恶作剧,并逃避了很多。

DAVID PEPPER: Yes.(42)
大卫·佩普:是的。

The second book really gets into the roleof dark money.(43)
第二本书真正成为黑暗货币的角色。

And it tries to show the kind of mischiefyou can cause, that dark money allows you(44)
它试图显示你可能导致的恶作剧,黑暗的钱可以让你

to do for the most part legally.(45)
大部分是合法的。

And so it's another plot that I think, frankly,will feel parallel to some of the things that(46)
坦率地说,这是另一种情节,我认为,这种情节会与某些事情平行

are happening today, because it again triesto capture some of the weaknesses in our system(47)
今天正在发生,因为它再次试图捕捉我们系统中的一些弱点

and what they allow for in our campaigns andelections.(48)
以及他们在我们的竞选和选举中所容许的内容。

JUDY WOODRUFF: So, the things that you portrayin these books, you think a lot of that could(49)
JUDY WOODRUFF:所以,你在这些书中描绘的东西,你认为很多东西都可以

really happen?(50)
真的发生?

DAVID PEPPER: Yes, so the -- when my firstbook was finished, the first readers, before(51)
DAVID PEPPER:是的,所以 - 当我第一本书完成时,第一批读者,之前

it ultimately started to look like reality,would say to me, your book really scared me(52)
它最终开始看起来像现实,会对我说,你的书真的让我害怕

because it felt so real.(53)
因为它感觉真实。

Do you really think this could happen?(54)
你真的认为这会发生吗?

And so there is some dramatic license in thesebooks, but my point in the end was to actually(55)
所以这些书中有一些戏剧性的许可证,但我最终的观点实际上是

capture the political system as it currentlyexists, capture the laws that exist and show(56)
捕捉目前存在的政治体系,捕捉存在和展示的法律

that, yes -- again, there is a little moredrama in the books than probably real life,(57)
那是的 - 同样,书中的戏剧比真实的生活还要多一点,

but to show that what we have allowed to getinto our political systems, dark money, gerrymandering...(58)
但要表明我们已经允许进入我们的政治体系,黑暗的钱,gerrymandering ...

JUDY WOODRUFF: And by dark money, remind...(59)
JUDY WOODRUFF:用黑暗的钱,提醒......

(CROSSTALK)
DAVID PEPPER: Dark money is the ability tospend money that is not disclosed, often through(60)
DAVID PEPPER:黑金是能够花钱而不经常透露的

nonprofits that are perfectly legal, thatwe have created -- by the way, at the hyperpartisan(61)
那些非常合法的非营利组织,我们已经创建了 - 顺便说一下,超级党派

environment that basically has some peoplenot wanting to crack down on things because(62)
基本上有些人不想打击事物的环境因为

it may help them, that all of these add upto a huge weakness that, as I show in the(63)
它可以帮助他们,所有这些加起来就是一个巨大的弱点,正如我在其中展示的那样

first book, and as we're seeing, other countriescan see that maybe we don't see as clearly(64)
第一本书,正如我们所看到的,其他国家可以看到,也许我们看不清楚

as they do.(65)
像他们一样。

And, all of a sudden, those weaknesses adto really opening up pretty dark possibilities(66)
而且,突然之间,这些弱点使真正开启了非常黑暗的可能性

in our election cycles.(67)
在我们的选举周期。

JUDY WOODRUFF: So you see a lot of these darkpossibilities, and yet you continue to work(68)
JUDY WOODRUFF:所以你看到很多这些黑暗的可能性,但你继续工作

in politics.(69)
在政治上。

DAVID PEPPER: Yes.(70)
大卫·佩普:是的。

JUDY WOODRUFF: That's your day job.(71)
JUDY WOODRUFF:那是你的日常工作。

DAVID PEPPER: Yes, I'm very passionate aboutpolitics.(72)
大卫·佩普:是的,我对政治充满激情。

And if you watch me closely in politics, inaddition to writing these books about these(73)
如果你在政治上密切关注我,除了写这些关于这些书的书

issues, I'm very passionate about ending gerrymandering.(74)
问题,我非常热衷于结束gerrymandering。

And one thing we're very proud of in Ohio,in the last couple of years, we have put measures(75)
有一件事我们在俄亥俄州感到非常自豪,在过去的几年里,我们已经采取了措施

forward and worked with, frankly, both sidesand a lot of citizen groups to try and end(76)
坦率地说,双方和很多公民团体一起努力并结束

gerrymandering in Ohio.(77)
gerrymandering在俄亥俄州。

So, yes, I stay involved, but I would callmyself a reformer.(78)
所以,是的,我保持参与,但我会称自己为改革者。

But if someone wants to kind of get some hintsabout the things I'm most passionate about,(79)
但是如果有人想对我最热衷的事情有一些暗示,

it's some of the central aspects of thesebooks.(80)
这是这些书的核心部分。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, wearing -- with yourday job hat on, as the director of the Ohio(81)
JUDY WOODRUFF:好吧,戴上你的日常工作帽,担任俄亥俄州的负责人

Democratic Party, let me just ask you a coupleof questions about that.(82)
民主党,让我问你一些关于这个问题的问题。

DAVID PEPPER: Right.(83)
大卫·佩普:对。

JUDY WOODRUFF: How much do you think Ohiovoters care, are interested in the Russia(84)
JUDY WOODRUFF:你认为俄亥俄州选民关心你多少,对俄罗斯感兴趣

investigation, which is getting so much attentionhere in Washington?(85)
调查,这在华盛顿引起了如此多的关注。

DAVID PEPPER: So, interestingly, given thatI wrote these books, I think they care, but(86)
DAVID PEPPER:有趣的是,鉴于我写了这些书,我认为他们很在意,但是

I don't think that's the winning message ofcandidates this year.(87)
我不认为这是今年候选人的胜利信息。

I think to respond to everything Trump doesevery day, it would be only anti-Trump.(88)
我认为要回应特朗普每天所做的一切,这只会是反特朗普。

To talk about Russia and Comey all day, Iactually think that is a trap.(89)
整天谈论俄罗斯和Comey,我其实认为这是一个陷阱。

And if Democratic candidates get caught upon that every day, I actually think they will(90)
如果民主党候选人每天都陷入困境,我确实认为他们会

not do as well in elections, as if they hadstayed disciplined and focused on the kind(91)
在选举中表现不佳,好像他们一直遵守纪律并专注于这种事

of issues people worry about every day aroundtheir kitchen table.(92)
人们每天都在厨房桌子周围担心的问题。

JUDY WOODRUFF: David Pepper, the chair ofthe Democratic Party in the state of Ohio(93)
JUDY WOODRUFF:俄亥俄州民主党主席大卫佩珀

and the author of two political thrillers,thank you very much.(94)
和两位政治惊悚小说家的作者,非常感谢你。

DAVID PEPPER: Thank you so much.(95)
大卫佩普:非常感谢。

Great to be here.(96)
很高兴在这里。


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