Ruth Marcus and Michael Gerson on impeachment inquiry, withdrawal of Beto O’Rourke
2019-11-01 00:00:00


AMNA NAWAZ: This week marked an historic moment.(1)
AMNA NAWAZ:本周标志着历史性的时刻。

For only the fourth time in U.S. history,the House of Representatives passed a resolution(2)
众议院在美国历史上仅第四次通过一项决议

formalizing public impeachment proceduresagainst the president.(3)
规范针对总统的弹imp程序。

Meanwhile, the race to head the Democraticticket has shrunk by one.(4)
同时,争取民主党民主党人票的竞争已经减少了一个。

Here to help make sense of it all are Marcusand Gerson.(5)
Marcus和Gerson正是在这里让这一切变得有意义。

That's Washington Post columnist Ruth Marcusand syndicated columnist Michael Gerson, also(6)
那是《华盛顿邮报》专栏作家露丝·马库斯(Ruth Marcus)和辛迪加专栏作家迈克尔·格森(Michael Gerson),

with The Washington Post.(7)
与《华盛顿邮报》。

Mark Shields and David Brooks are away.(8)
马克·希尔兹(Mark Shields)和大卫·布鲁克斯(David Brooks)不在。

But you both are here.(9)
但是你们俩都在这里。

Happy Friday, and thanks for being here.(10)
星期五快乐,感谢您在这里。

MICHAEL GERSON: Good to be here.(11)
MICHAEL GERSON:很高兴来到这里。

AMNA NAWAZ: A lot to cover.(12)
AMNA NAWAZ:有很多要讲的。

Let's start with the little bit of news wealready have tonight on the impeachment process.(13)
让我们从今晚关于弹each过程的一些新闻开始。

Ruth, there's some reporting late tonightabout details from one of the testimonies(14)
露丝(Ruth),今晚深夜有一些关于其中一项证词细节的报道

earlier this week.(15)
本周早些时候。

This was a man named Lieutenant Colonel Vindman.(16)
这是一个名叫维德曼中校的人。

It's being reported now that he, as a memberof the national security staff in the White(17)
据报道,他是怀特州国家安全人员

House, was on that call between PresidentTrump and President Zelensky, and that he(18)
众议院正在特朗普总统与泽伦斯基总统之间的通话中,他

was instructed after that call by a top WhiteHouse lawyer not to discuss that call with(19)
通话后,白宫高级律师指示不要与该通话人讨论通话

anyone.(20)
任何人。

When you take into account all the reportsabout testimony this week, what are your takeaways?(21)
当您考虑到本周有关证词的所有报告时,您的收获是什么?

RUTH MARCUS: Well, for a conversation thatthe president has told us was so perfect,(22)
马修斯(RUTH MARCUS):好的,总统告诉我们的对话是如此完美,

he's going to read it to us in a firesidechat, there certainly was a lot of alarm about(23)
他将在炉边聊天中向我们朗读,肯定有很多关于

this conversation.(24)
这个对话。

It's difficult to tell whether this was alawyer being careful and just simply telling(25)
很难说这是不是律师很谨慎,只是简单地讲

the people he advises not to make more ofthis conversation than there was, or whether(26)
他建议的人们不要在对话中多讲一些话,或者

this was a lawyer trying to cover up and concealthis conversation.(27)
这位律师试图掩盖和掩盖这次谈话。

It's one of the many things that we need toknow more about.(28)
这是我们需要更多了解的许多事情之一。

And it's one of the many things that we havelearned in the last several weeks that really(29)
这是过去几周我们学到的许多东西

makes this impeachment inquiry so centraland so essential, and just means that we cannot(30)
使弹each调查变得如此重要和至关重要,而这意味着我们不能

avert our eyes from this and go on with theelection as if we didn't know what was going(31)
避开这件事,继续选举,好像我们不知道发生了什么

on here.(32)
在这。

AMNA NAWAZ: Michael, as we have mentioned,the president keeps saying it was a perfect(33)
阿玛·纳瓦兹(AMNA NAWAZ):迈克尔,正如我们所提到的,总统一直说这是一个完美的选择

phone call.(34)
电话。

Vice President Pence has also said there wasno quid pro quo.(35)
彭斯副总统还表示,没有交换条件。

He said this several times in an interviewwith our own Judy Woodruff earlier this week.(36)
他在本周早些时候接受我们自己的茱蒂·伍德拉夫(Judy Woodruff)采访时说了几次。

The more information we get, it seems to contradictthose two claims.(37)
我们获得的信息越多,似乎就与这两个主张相矛盾。

MICHAEL GERSON: Well, I think it's fair tosay that the professionals, the non-political(38)
MICHAEL GERSON:嗯,我认为可以公平地说,专业人士,非政治人士

appointees that were involved in this processfrom State and the NSC, were deeply concerned,(39)
国家和NSC参与此过程的被任命者深为关切,

contemporaneously, when they found out aboutit, and they brought it up to superiors, and(40)
同时,当他们发现它并将其带给上级时,

didn't get much result.(41)
没有得到太多结果。

Even the political appointees that were involvedin this, however, didn't exonerate the president.(42)
但是,甚至与此有关的政治任命也没有免除总统的责任。

They actually pretty much confirmed the accountfrom the whistle-blower.(43)
实际上,他们几乎从举报人那里证实了这一说法。

So the effect of all this is to take awaythe argument no quid pro quo.(44)
因此,所有这一切的结果是消除了没有争议的争论。

That argument doesn't work anymore.(45)
该论点不再有效。

It's been deflated and defeated.(46)
它被放气并被击败。

And I think Republicans are now driven toother positions, because that has been taken(47)
我认为共和党人现在被迫担任其他职务,因为这已经被采取了

away.(48)
远。

RUTH MARCUS: Well, we will see if they letit be taken away.(49)
马修斯(RUTH MARCUS):好的,我们将看看他们是否允许将其带走。

But I completely agree with Michael.(50)
但是我完全同意迈克尔。

Asked and answered on quid pro quo.(51)
问与答关于交换现状。

That was the significance of this week.(52)
这就是本周的意义。

Not only Ambassador Taylor from the previousweek, but Lieutenant Colonel Vindman and Tim(53)
不仅是前一周的泰勒大使,还有温德曼上校和蒂姆中校

Morrison, another aide at the National SecurityCouncil, reaffirmed quid pro quo.(54)
国家安全委员会的另一名助手莫里森重申了交换条件。

The second question is, OK, if you don't havethe "there's no quid pro quo" argument, do(55)
第二个问题是,好的,如果您没有“没有特殊条件”的论点,请执行

you have the unfairness argument?(56)
你有不公平的说法吗?

That's the other significance of this weekis, we finally have -- debate about whether(57)
这就是本周的另一个意义,我们终于有了-关于是否

we should have had it earlier -- a resolutionthat will set forward what the procedures(58)
我们应该早点拥有它-一项决议将提出程序

should be going forward.(59)
应该向前发展。

Republicans are claiming that this is deeplyunfair and the whole thing is tainted by the(60)
共和党人声称这是非常不公平的,整个事情都受到了

previous unfairness.(61)
先前的不公平。

But I guess I would ask them, if they hadvideo -- if the impeachment inquiry came up(62)
但是我想我会问他们,如果他们有视频-弹inquiry调查是否到来

with video of the president shooting someonein the middle of Fifth Avenue, would they(63)
与总统在第五大道中枪杀某人的视频有关,他们会

say we should ignore that because the proceedingswere unfair?(64)
说我们应该忽略这一点,因为诉讼是不公平的?

They weren't.(65)
他们不是。

And they shouldn't ignore anything.(66)
而且他们不应该忽略任何东西。

And they have set out fair proceedings goingforward.(67)
他们提出了公正的程序。

AMNA NAWAZ: Well, what about the process here,Michael?(68)
AMNA NAWAZ:好的,Michael的程序如何?

Because that is the sort of the core of theRepublicans' protests at this point, right,(69)
因为这是共和党目前抗议活动的核心,对,

that the process has been unfair.(70)
这个过程是不公平的。

As it looks like we're moving into an openpublic hearing set now, what about those protests?(71)
看来我们现在正在进入公开听证会,那么那些抗议呢?

Are those valid?(72)
这些有效吗?

MICHAEL GERSON: Well, it seems basically fair,what they have outlined.(73)
MICHAEL GERSON:嗯,他们概述的内容似乎基本上是公平的。

As far as the Judiciary Committee, the president'slawyer gets the right to bring witnesses,(74)
就司法委员会而言,总统的律师有权带证人,

challenge witnesses.(75)
挑战证人。

In fact, we may next week get a lot of theclosed hearing information come out next week,(76)
实际上,下周我们可能会收到很多封闭的听证会信息,

as far as the transcripts of these other things.(77)
至于这些其他东西的成绩单。

So there's a degree of transparency therethat I think just makes intuitive sense.(78)
因此,我认为这具有一定程度的透明度,这很直观。

RUTH MARCUS: And if...(79)
RUTH MARCUS:如果...

MICHAEL GERSON: But the Republicans love totalk about process, because they don't want(80)
迈克尔·格森:但是共和党人喜欢谈论程序,因为他们不想

to talk about substance.(81)
谈论实质。

I mean, they're happy when they can talk aboutprocess in this case, because their arguments(82)
我的意思是,他们很高兴在这种情况下可以谈论流程,因为他们的论点是

are pretty weak otherwise.(83)
否则非常脆弱。

AMNA NAWAZ: Go ahead, Ruth.(84)
AMNA NAWAZ:继续,露丝。

RUTH MARCUS: If these procedures aren't fair,then they weren't fair to Bill Clinton, because(85)
马修斯:如果这些程序不公平,那么对比尔·克林顿也不公平,因为

they're essentially the same procedures.(86)
它们本质上是相同的过程。

AMNA NAWAZ: Let me ask you about how someof these messages and information are going(87)
AMNA NAWAZ:让我问您有关这些消息和信息的进展情况

over with the American public, because weheard Judy ask this of Vice President Biden(88)
在美国公众面前,因为我们听到朱迪问拜登副总统的这个问题

earlier, is there a potential political costfor Democrats here?(89)
早些时候,民主党在这里有潜在的政治代价吗?

We saw that House vote really strictly alongparty lines.(90)
我们看到众议院严格按照政党路线投票。

Take a look at this poll now, the new numbersfrom The Washington Post and ABC News.(91)
现在看一下这次民意调查,《华盛顿邮报》和《美国广播公司新闻》的新数据。

People were asked, should Congress impeachand remove President Trump from office?(92)
人们被问到,国会应该弹imp并将特朗普总统免职吗?

That's obviously a different bar, impeachand remove.(93)
显然,弹bar和删除是另外一个障碍。

But the country is very evenly divided whenit comes to that.(94)
但是在这个问题上,这个国家的分歧非常大。

What do you say to that, Ruth?(95)
你对那说什么,露丝?

Is there a political cost for how this ismoving forward now for Democrats?(96)
民主党现在如何向前发展要付出政治代价吗?

RUTH MARCUS: Well, one thing I would say toit is -- and I suggested this before -- it(97)
马修斯(RUTH MARCUS):好吧,我要说的一件事是-我以前曾建议过-

doesn't matter.(98)
没关系

This conduct is serious enough that it needsto be taken seriously, political cost or not.(99)
这种行为严重到需要认真对待,无论是否付出政治代价。

And the other thing I would say is that, ifyou look at those numbers, which show a very(100)
我想说的另一件事是,如果您查看这些数字,

divided country, but look back at numbersfrom July before the Ukraine story broke,(101)
分裂的国家,但回顾一下乌克兰故事破裂之前的7月的数字,

when the question was asked, not whether heshould be impeached and removed from office,(102)
当问到这个问题时,不是应该对他进行弹imp和免职,

which is a dramatic outcome, but simply whetheran impeachment inquiry should go forward,(103)
这是一个惊人的结果,但仅仅是是否应该进行弹inquiry调查,

the number was 37 percent.(104)
这个数字是37%。

So, from 37 percent supporting an inquirygoing forward to 49 percent supporting removing(105)
因此,从支持查询的37%到支持删除的49%

him from office, that's a dramatic change.(106)
他下任后,这是一个巨大的变化。

And the reason for that dramatic change isbecause the facts have emerged, that people(107)
发生这种巨大变化的原因是因为事实已经出现,人们

understand this is something serious goingon.(108)
明白这是严重的事情。

AMNA NAWAZ: Michael, very briefly, movinginto next week, there are some key White House(109)
AMNA NAWAZ:迈克尔,非常简短,进入下周,有一些关键的白宫

officials who have been invited to testify.(110)
被邀请作证的官员。

What do you think we will be hearing nextweek?(111)
您认为下周我们会听到什么?

And could it change the narrative at all?(112)
并能完全改变叙述吗?

MICHAEL GERSON: Well, I think that Boltonholds a lot of power in his hands right now.(113)
MICHAEL GERSON:好吧,我认为Bolton现在掌握着很多力量。

I don't know when he might appear.(114)
我不知道他何时会出现。

But it's -- this is a case where he couldconfirm a lot of things and have some significant(115)
但是,在这种情况下,他可以确认很多事情并有一些重要意义

influence.(116)
影响。

And I think, as we move into the public hearings,some of these witnesses, like the lieutenant(117)
我认为,当我们进入公开听证会时,其中一些证人,如中尉

colonel, are going to be great witnesses.(118)
上校,将成为伟大的见证人。

RUTH MARCUS: In his dress blues.(119)
RUTH MARCUS:穿着蓝色的衣服。

Imagine that.(120)
想象一下。

MICHAEL GERSON: Right.(121)
迈克尔·格森:对。

Exactly.(122)
究竟。

So, I think Democrats can look forward tothat, I think.(123)
因此,我认为民主党人可以期待这一点。

And some of those witnesses will be very effective.(124)
其中一些证人将非常有效。

AMNA NAWAZ: I'd be remiss if I didn't askyou about the 2020 race.(125)
AMNA NAWAZ:如果我不问您有关2020年比赛的信息,我将不知所措。

We had some news on that front as well tonight,as we reported earlier.(126)
正如我们先前报道的,今晚我们在这方面也有一些新闻。

The field has been narrowed by one on theDemocratic primary front.(127)
在民主党的主要战线上,这一领域已经缩小了一个。

Beto O'Rourke announced today he is droppingout of the race, saying: "Though it is difficult(128)
贝托·奥罗克(Beto O'Rourke)今天宣布退出比赛,他说:“尽管很难

to accept, it's clear to me now this campaigndoesn't have the means to move forward successfully."(129)
可以接受,对于我来说很明显,这个竞选活动没有成功进行的手段。”

What does that say to you, Ruth?(130)
这对你说了什么,露丝?

RUTH MARCUS: He didn't have the money.(131)
马修斯:他没有钱。

This crowded field has made it all but impossiblefor individuals who might otherwise have broken(132)
这个拥挤的田野使原本可能破碎的人几乎无法做到

through to break through.(133)
通过突破。

Beto O'Rourke just two years ago was the newthing.(134)
两年前的Beto O'Rourke才是新事物。

But, this cycle, there's a new new thing inthe form of Pete Buttigieg.(135)
但是,在这个周期中,以Pete Buttigieg的形式出现了新事物。

And he -- I'm sorry, in a sense, that he didn'tmake the decision to run for the Senate in(136)
而且他-从某种意义上说,很抱歉,他没有做出竞选参议院的决定

Texas again, because I think he would havehad a better shot at that.(137)
再次得克萨斯州,因为我认为他会对此有更好的表现。

And I think it might have been better bothfor him and the country.(138)
我认为这对他和整个国家都可能会更好。

MICHAEL GERSON: And he took positions, though,in the campaign that would make a run in Texas(139)
迈克尔·格森(Michael GERSON):不过,他在竞选活动中担任了职位

impossible, in my view.(140)
我认为这是不可能的。

RUTH MARCUS: That is true.(141)
马修斯:是的。

MICHAEL GERSON: When you come out againsttax exemptions for churches that disapproved(142)
迈克尔·格森:当您反对针对不获批准的教堂免税时

gay marriage...(143)
同性恋婚姻...

RUTH MARCUS: And take guns.(144)
马库斯:拿枪。

MICHAEL GERSON: ... talking about gun confiscation,I mean, I think Trump's support survives on(145)
MICHAEL GERSON:...谈到没收枪支,我的意思是,我认为特朗普的支持仍然存在

fear.(146)
恐惧。

And he justified those fears for a lot ofpeople.(147)
他证明了对许多人的担忧。

I think it's better for the Democratic Partythat he's gone.(148)
我认为民主党离任对他来说更好。

AMNA NAWAZ: What does it say to you abouthim leaving now?(149)
AMNA NAWAZ:关于他现在离开,这对您说了什么?

And where do his supporters go, given someof the movement we have seen recently off(150)
鉴于我们最近看到的一些动静,他的支持者们去了哪里?

of those fund-raising numbers, right?(151)
这些筹款数字中,对吗?

We saw Judy asking Vice President Biden aboutsome of the struggles he had with fund-raising.(152)
我们看到朱迪向拜登副总统询问他在筹款方面遇到的一些困难。

He had what some would say is a meager $15million at the end of the last quarter.(153)
在上个季度末,他的话说的只有区区1500万美元。

Kamala Harris restructuring her campaign,probably under financial pressure there, too.(154)
卡马拉·哈里斯(Kamala Harris)可能在当地的财务压力下重组了她的竞选活动。

This is a key moment in that race.(155)
这是那场比赛的关键时刻。

Where does his crowd go?(156)
他的人群去哪儿了?

MICHAEL GERSON: Well, there's some winnowinggoing on in the race.(157)
MICHAEL GERSON:嗯,比赛中有些风吹草动。

I don't think his crowd was large enough tomake much of a difference, to be honest.(158)
老实说,我认为他的人群并不大,可以发挥很大的作用。

But he certainly represented kind of liberalidealism in the race.(159)
但他当然代表种族中的一种自由主义理想主义。

And there are others that take that up.(160)
还有其他人接受这一点。

I mean, the candidate that has risen overthe last few weeks and months is Elizabeth(161)
我的意思是,在过去几周和几个月中上升的候选人是伊丽莎白

Warren.(162)
沃伦。

And she now has her plan out about how topay for Medicare for all.(163)
现在,她已经制定了有关如何为所有人支付医疗保险的计划。

And I think the reaction to that, the waythat the views settle on it, is going to determine(164)
我认为对此的反应,即意见确定的方式,将决定

whether people think she can win or not.(165)
人们是否认为她可以赢。

AMNA NAWAZ: And very briefly, Ruth, in 30seconds, has she done a good job defending(166)
AMNA NAWAZ:非常简短,Ruth在30秒内做了出色的防守

that now?(167)
那现在?

RUTH MARCUS: Well, kudos to anybody who putsout a plan with some meat on the bones and(168)
马修斯(RUTH MARCUS):好吧,如果有人提出计划,在骨头上放些肉,

some explanation of what she thinks it's goingto cost and how she thinks -- is going to(169)
关于她认为将要付出的代价以及她的想法的一些解释-将

pay for it.(170)
付钱。

But I'm going to quote Nancy Pelosi here onMedicare for all.(171)
但我要在《医疗保险》中全部引用南希·佩洛西的话。

There's a comfort level that people have withtheir current private insurance.(172)
人们对当前的私人保险有一定的舒适度。

And if that is to be phased out, let's talkabout it, but let's not just have one bill(173)
如果要逐步取消这一点,让我们来谈谈,但不仅要有一项法案

that would do that.(174)
那会做到的。

And she questions whether you can win theElectoral College with that message.(175)
她质疑您是否可以凭借该信息赢得选举学院。

I think that's a serious question for Democrats.(176)
我认为这对民主党人是一个严重的问题。

AMNA NAWAZ: That's going to be a conversationto continue there, for sure.(177)
AMNA NAWAZ:毫无疑问,这将是继续进行下去的对话。

Ruth Marcus and Michael Gerson, thank youso much for being here.(178)
露丝·马库斯(Ruth Marcus)和迈克尔·格森(Michael Gerson),非常感谢您在这里。


All News Articles fetched from PBS RSS Feeds and copyrighted by pbs.org