What Rep. Steve Cohen thinks about the evidence against Trump
2019-11-20 00:00:00


JUDY WOODRUFF: And now we get a Democraticview from Capitol Hill.(1)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫(JUDY WOODRUFF):现在,我们从国会山获得民主党的观点。

And that is a member of the House JudiciaryCommittee.(2)
那是众议院司法委员会的成员。

They would hold hearings on impeachment ifthe Intelligence Committee were to end its(3)
如果情报委员会要结束弹each,他们将举行弹imp听证会。

work and pass it on to Judiciary.(4)
工作并将其传递给司法机构。

Congressman Steve Cohen of Tennessee joinsme now.(5)
田纳西州议员史蒂夫·科恩(Steve Cohen)现在加入了我。

So, Congressman Cohen, you probably just heardKellyanne Conway say these hearings have gone(6)
所以,国会议员科恩,您可能刚刚听过凯莉安·康威(Kellyanne Conway)的讲话,

on too long, and they have basically provednothing about the president.(7)
时间太长了,他们基本上没有证明总统的事。

REP.(8)
代表

STEVE COHEN (D-TN): Well, she speaks whatthe administration wants the Republicans to(9)
史蒂夫·科恩(D-TN):恩,她说的是政府希望共和党人做的

speak and their line.(10)
说话和他们的路线。

It's like throwing the spaghetti on the walland hoping something sticks.(11)
这就像将意大利面条扔在墙上并希望粘上东西一样。

The two major anti-corruption parts of theConstitution are the Emoluments Clause -- and(12)
宪法的两个主要反腐败部分是薪酬条款-和

the president has never sent one single contract,reward, payment that he's got from a foreign(13)
总统从未发送过他从外国人那里得到的一份合同,报酬和付款

power to Congress to ask for permission toget it -- and the other is impeachment, which(14)
国会要求获得许可的权力-另一个是弹each,

is high crimes, misdemeanors, bribery, andtreason.(15)
是高犯罪率,轻罪,贿赂和叛国罪。

And they think that we shouldn't have an impeachmentproceeding, probably at all, but, certainly,(16)
他们认为我们根本不应该进行弹each程序,但是,当然,

they say, in the last year before a presidentialelection.(17)
他们说,在总统选举前的最后一年。

It's just corruption -- Trump could writea book on corruption.(18)
只是腐败-特朗普可以写一本关于腐败的书。

It could be a -- have everything in it.(19)
它可能-包含了所有内容。

And as far as him not dealing with foreigncountries that are corrupt, Afghanistan gets(20)
至于他不与腐败的外国打交道,阿富汗得到

foreign aid, very corrupt.(21)
外援,非常腐败。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, let's talk about today's-- what came out of today's hearing, among(22)
JUDY WOODRUFF:好吧,让我们谈谈今天-今天的听证会中,

other things.(23)
其他事情。

We heard Kellyanne Conway say there was -- atno point was the ambassador, Sondland, the(24)
我们听到凯莉安妮·康威(Kellyanne Conway)说过-大使桑德兰(Sondland)

ambassador to the European Union, able tosay that President Trump himself said that(25)
驻欧盟大使,可以说特朗普总统本人说

aid to Ukraine or a meeting with Ukraine isgoing to be -- or with the leader of Ukraine(26)
向乌克兰提供援助或与乌克兰会面-或与乌克兰领导人会面

-- is going to be conditioned on whether theydo an investigation into Joe Biden or the(27)
-将取决于他们是否对Joe Biden或

Democrats.(28)
民主党人。

REP.(29)
代表

STEVE COHEN: Well, apparently, he didn't.(30)
史蒂夫·科恩:好吧,显然他没有。

He said he kind of got it from Giuliani.(31)
他说他有点从朱利安尼那里得到。

But he made it clear that two and two is fourand that all of the parts are there, and that(32)
但是他明确指出,二和二是四个,所有部分都在那里,并且

anybody that could add or anybody that cansee and anybody that can understand what is(33)
可以添加的任何人,可以看到的任何人以及可以理解什么的任何人

going on would know it.(34)
继续会知道这一点。

He said they were all in on it.(35)
他说他们全都参与其中。

It goes from Pompeo, Pence, Mulvaney, thepresident, Giuliani, all of them.(36)
它来自庞培,便士,穆尔瓦尼,总统朱利安尼,所有这些人。

And he was told to work with Giuliani, andthat's what they were looking at.(37)
他被告知要与朱利安尼(Giuliani)合作,这就是他们所关注的。

And they were conditioning the meeting onthose investigations, and obviously, they(38)
他们以这些调查为会议条件,显然,他们

were conditioning the military aid as well.(39)
也在调整军事援助。

JUDY WOODRUFF: But if they don't have a directlink with the president, can they move ahead(40)
茱蒂·伍德鲁夫(JUDY WOODRUFF):但是,如果他们与总统没有直接联系,他们可以继续前进吗?

with impeachment?(41)
弹imp?

Is that -- does that constitute in any wayan impeachable offense?(42)
那是-构成任何可弹each的罪行吗?

REP.(43)
代表

STEVE COHEN: You don't have to see somebodycommit a murder if there's enough evidence,(44)
史蒂夫·科恩(STEVE COHEN):如果有足够的证据,您不必看到有人谋杀,

and you get the fingerprints off the rifle,and if you get the person was there.(45)
然后您从步枪上取下了指纹,如果您把那个人放在那儿。

Nobody saw Oswald shoot President Kennedy,but we know where he was.(46)
没有人看到奥斯瓦尔德向肯尼迪总统开枪,但我们知道他在哪里。

We know who owned the gun.(47)
我们知道谁拥有枪支。

We know whose fingerprints were on the gun.(48)
我们知道谁的指纹在枪上。

You don't have to necessarily see it.(49)
您不必一定要看到它。

Most crimes don't have necessarily witnessesthat can put you there.(50)
大多数犯罪不一定都有可以将您带到现场的证人。

And this is a situation where there's enoughpeople that can do it.(51)
在这种情况下,有足够的人可以做到这一点。

And they're stopping the firsthand evidencethat say Trump that did it from -- people(52)
他们正在阻止第一手证据表明特朗普是这样做的-人们

from testifying.(53)
从作证。

Trump is not allowing evidence, papers fromState Department or from the White House to(54)
特朗普不允许国务院或白宫提供的证据,文件

be given, pursuant to subpoena to the committee,and not allowing Mulvaney, the actors that(55)
根据传票给委员会,并且不允许Mulvaney演员

were there, Pompeo and others, to testify.(56)
庞培和其他人在那里作证。

And he's encouraging everybody else not totestify.(57)
而且他鼓励其他人不要作证。

And that's an impeachable article we saw inthe impeachment of Nixon, is obstruction of(58)
这是我们在尼克松的弹saw中看到的一条难以理解的文章,

Congress and the lack of cooperation.(59)
国会缺乏合作。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, that was a pretty strikingcomparison you just made with the assassination(60)
JUDY WOODRUFF:恩,这是您刚刚与暗杀所做的惊人对比

of President Kennedy.(61)
总统肯尼迪。

Did you mean to make something so stark, sostark a comparison?(62)
您是说要做出如此鲜明,如此鲜明的比较吗?

REP.(63)
代表

STEVE COHEN: Well, I was just thinking ofa crime where there wasn't a witness to it.(64)
史蒂夫·科恩(Steve Cohen):好吧,我只是在想一个没有证人的犯罪。

But I think all of us -- most all of us agreeand believe that Lee Harvey Oswald assassinated(65)
但是我认为我们所有人-大多数人都同意并相信李·哈维·奥斯瓦尔德被暗杀

President Kennedy.(66)
肯尼迪总统。

But nobody was up on the sixth floor of theTexas School Book Depository and witnessed(67)
但是没人在德州学校书库的六楼上目睹

him do it.(68)
他去做。

You don't necessarily have to have an eyewitnessto a crime.(69)
您不必一定要目击犯罪。

JUDY WOODRUFF: What else do Democrats needto do, in your mind, to move ahead with what(70)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫(JUDY WOODRUFF):在您看来,民主党人还需要做什么?

they believe is a case against this president?(71)
他们认为这是对这位总统的反对吗?

REP.(72)
代表

STEVE COHEN: Excuse me?(73)
史蒂夫·科恩:对不起?

JUDY WOODRUFF: What else do you believe Democratson the Intelligence Committee, which is now(74)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫(JUDY WOODRUFF):您对现在的情报委员会的民主党人还有什么看法

running these impeachment -- this impeachmentinquiry, what else do you believe they need(75)
进行弹imp-弹imp查询,您认为他们还需要什么

to prove?(76)
证明?

Because, as you and I have been discussing,still, at this point, there is not a solid(77)
因为,正如您和我一直在讨论的那样,在这一点上,仍然没有确定的答案

connection between the president and whathappened with regard to Ukraine.(78)
总统与乌克兰发生的事情之间的联系。

REP.(79)
代表

STEVE COHEN: Well, I think Giuliani's a solidconnection.(80)
史蒂夫·科恩(Steve Cohen):好吧,我认为朱利安尼(Giuliani)是牢固的联系。

I think that there's enough information whenhe claims, which has been testified to, that(81)
我认为当他声称有足够的信息证明时,

he was thrilled that they were going to dothe investigation.(82)
他为他们将要进行调查而感到兴奋。

And I think Sondland understands Trump whenhe says he didn't care about Ukraine, he cared(83)
我认为桑德兰很了解特朗普,他说他不在乎乌克兰,他在乎

about the investigation, and how it wouldaffect his election.(84)
调查,以及如何影响他的当选。

This is what makes the man tick.(85)
这就是使男人打勾的原因。

And I think that there's -- you can have circumstantialevidence.(86)
而且我认为-您可以有间接证据。

You can have hearsay evidence.(87)
您可以拥有传闻证据。

You don't have to have direct evidence.(88)
您不必直接提供证据。

You don't have to have an eyewitness.(89)
您不必有目击者。

And there are other things as well.(90)
还有其他事情。

But I think that it would be nice to haveMulvaney and/or Pompeo or some of the people(91)
但我认为有Mulvaney和/或Pompeo或一些人会很好

who were in on the phone call to testify.(92)
谁正在打电话作证。

But the White House is stopping them fromdoing that.(93)
但是白宫正在阻止他们这样做。

There is obviously a reason why they're stoppingthem from doing it, because they don't want(94)
他们之所以阻止他们这样做,显然是有原因的,因为他们不想

the truth to be known, and they don't wantthem to have to go in there and either tell(95)
事实是众所周知的,他们不希望他们必须走进去,要么告诉

the truth or perjure themselves.(96)
真理还是伪造自己。

And it's...(97)
那是...

JUDY WOODRUFF: Congressman...(98)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:议员...

REP.(99)
代表

STEVE COHEN: Yes, ma'am.(100)
史蒂夫·科恩:是的,女士。

JUDY WOODRUFF: No, I'm sorry.(101)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:不,对不起。

I didn't mean to interrupt.(102)
我不是故意打扰。

I wanted you to finish your thought.(103)
我希望你能完成你的想法。

But, Congressman, what do you hear from yourconstituents in Tennessee?(104)
但是,国会议员,您从田纳西州的选民那里听到了什么?

We just heard Kellyanne Conway say the newestpolls are showing the American people are(105)
我们刚刚听到Kellyanne Conway说最新的民意调查显示美国人

not being captivated, captivated by thesehearings.(106)
不要被这些听证所迷住。

She said, in fact, they're showing that anumber of people are turning away and they're(107)
她说,事实上,这表明许多人正在转身离开,他们正在

not -- they -- in other words, that the casefor an impeachment inquiry has been dropping,(108)
而是换句话说,弹imp质询的案子没有了,

rather than rising.(109)
而不是上升。

REP.(110)
代表

STEVE COHEN: Well, I don't know that, andI haven't seen the polls.(111)
史蒂夫·科恩(Steve Cohen):好吧,我不知道,而且我还没有看过民意调查。

And the Trump administration is notoriouslyfamous for lying about polls.(112)
特朗普政府以撒谎而闻名。

But people in my district -- I'm from Memphis.(113)
但是我所在地区的人-我来自孟菲斯。

Memphis isn't Tennessee.(114)
孟菲斯不是田纳西州。

Memphis is Memphis.(115)
孟菲斯就是孟菲斯。

And Memphis people that I hear from on a regularbase want Trump to be removed from office(116)
我经常听到孟菲斯人希望特朗普被免职

and to be impeached.(117)
并被弹imp。

They have thought that for a long time, whichmy city is predominantly African-American.(118)
他们已经考虑了很长时间了,我的城市主要是非洲裔美国人。

My district is predominantly African-American.(119)
我所在的地区主要是非裔美国人。

And the things he said about people comingfrom "expletive hole" countries, the way he's(120)
他所说的关于来自“粗暴漏洞”国家的人的话,他的方式

treated people, the few people he has of African-Americanorigin in his administration, it -- there's(121)
对待的人,他在他的政府中有少数来自非裔美国人的人,

been an antipathy there.(122)
那里是一种反感。

But I think African-American people just havea scienter that is appropriate, and they know(123)
但是我认为非裔美国人只有一位合适的科学家,他们知道

what this man is about.(124)
这个人是关于什么的。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Steve Cohen, representativefrom the state of Tennessee and a member of(125)
JUDY WOODRUFF:田纳西州代表史蒂夫·科恩(Steve Cohen)和

the House Judiciary Committee, thank you verymuch.(126)
众议院司法委员会,非常感谢。

JUDY WOODRUFF: And our live impeachment hearingcoverage continues tomorrow morning starting(127)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫(JUDY WOODRUFF):我们的现场弹each听觉覆盖范围将从明天早晨开始继续

at 9:00 Eastern.(128)
东部时间9:00。

You should check your local TV listings.(129)
您应该查看本地电视列表。

And, also, you can find us streaming onlineon our Facebook, on Twitter, and on YouTube(130)
而且,您还可以在Facebook,Twitter和YouTube上在线找到我们的流媒体

pages.(131)
页面。


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