With abortion measures, states see chance to challenge Roe v. Wade
2019-05-15 00:00:00


AMNA NAWAZ: With new conservative additionsto the U.S. Supreme Court, more and more states(1)
AMNA NAWAZ:随着美国最高法院的新保守派增加,越来越多的州

are passing laws meant to test the limitsof Roe vs. Wade.(2)
正在通过法律来测试Roe vs. Wade的极限。

The latest, Alabama, where last night thestate Senate passed the most restrictive abortion(3)
最新的阿拉巴马州,昨晚州参议院通过了最严格的堕胎

bill in the country.(4)
在该国的法案。

Inside the Alabama Senate chamber, four hoursof heated debate.(5)
在阿拉巴马州参议院议院内,进行了四个小时的激烈辩论。

CLYDE CHAMBLISS (R), Alabama State Senator:When that unborn child becomes a person, and(6)
CLYDE CHAMBLISS(R),阿拉巴马州参议员:当那个未出生的孩子成为一个人时,和

we need legal guidance on when that is.(7)
我们需要法律指导。

VIVIAN DAVIS FIGURES (D), Alabama State Senator:But that's not your business.(8)
VIVIAN DAVIS FIGURES(D),阿拉巴马州参议员:但那不是你的事。

You don't have to do anything for that child,but yet you want to make the decision for(9)
你不必为那个孩子做任何事,但你想做出决定

that woman that that's what she has to do.(10)
那个女人,那是她必须要做的。

CLYDE CHAMBLISS: I want to make the decisionfor that child.(11)
CLYDE CHAMBLISS:我想为那个孩子做出决定。

AMNA NAWAZ: Outside the Statehouse, dozensof protesters.(12)
AMNA NAWAZ:在众议院外,有数十名抗议者。

PROTESTER: When repro rights are under attack,what do we do?(13)
PROTESTER:当责备权利受到攻击时,我们该怎么办?

PROTESTERS: Stand up, fight back.(14)
PROTESTERS:站起来,反击。

AMNA NAWAZ: All of it culminating with anoverwhelming yes vote.(15)
AMNA NAWAZ:所有这一切都以压倒性的投票结果而告终。

MAN: House Bill 314 passes.(16)
男子:众议院法案314通过。

AMNA NAWAZ: And the nation's most-restrictiveabortion bill.(17)
AMNA NAWAZ:这是全国限制最严格的堕胎法案。

Alabama's HB-314 would ban almost every abortionat every stage of pregnancy.(18)
阿拉巴马州的HB-314几乎可以在怀孕的每个阶段禁止每次堕胎。

It would make it a felony for doctors to performabortions.(19)
这将使医生进行堕胎成为重罪。

They could face up to 99 years in prison.(20)
他们可能面临长达99年的监禁。

The bill has no exceptions for cases of rapeor incest, only when the mother's health is(21)
只有在母亲健康的情况下,该法案对强奸或乱伦案件没有例外

at risk.(22)
有一定风险。

Alabama's bill is the latest attempt to limitabortion access in the seven months since(23)
阿拉巴马州的法案是此后七个月内限制堕胎准入的最新尝试

Justice Brett Kavanaugh joined the SupremeCourt.(24)
法官Brett Kavanaugh加入了最高法院。

Since office October, 10 states have passedsome form of restriction that range from fetal(25)
自10月份以来,已有10个州通过了某种形式的限制,其中包括胎儿

heartbeat bills banning abortion after sixweeks, to requiring that fetal tissue be buried(26)
心跳法案禁止堕胎六周后,要求将胎儿组织埋葬

or cremated.(27)
或火化。

Alabama's Republican Governor Kay Ivey saysshe wants to review the bill before deciding(28)
阿拉巴马州的共和党州长凯伊维说她想在决定之前审查该法案

its fate, but the bill's advocates expecther to sign it.(29)
它的命运,但该法案的拥护者希望她签署它。

The new law is scheduled to go into effectin six months, but will almost certainly be(30)
新法律计划在六个月内生效,但几乎可以肯定

blocked by the courts before then.(31)
在此之前被法院封锁。

All this puts Alabama on potential path toSupreme Court and the landmark Roe vs. Wade(32)
所有这些都让阿拉巴马州走上了最高法院和具有里程碑意义的Roe vs. Wade的潜在道路

decision that legalized abortion nationwidemore than 45 years ago.(33)
45年前全国范围内将堕胎合法化的决定。

Now we take a look two states' efforts, Alabamaand Vermont, to enact new and opposing abortion(34)
现在我们来看看两个州的努力,阿拉巴马州和佛蒙特州,制定新的和反对的堕胎

laws.(35)
法律。

I'm joined by Brian Lyman, a political reporterat The Montgomery Advertiser.(36)
蒙哥马利广告商的政治记者Brian Lyman加入了我的行列。

He's in Montgomery, Alabama.(37)
他在阿拉巴马州的蒙哥马利。

Anne Galloway, editor of the VTDigger, joinsus from Burlington, and, via Skype, Mary Ziegler.(38)
VTDigger的编辑Anne Galloway从Burlington加入我们,并通过Skype加入Mary Ziegler。

She's a law professor at Florida State Universityand author of several books on abortion and(39)
她是佛罗里达州立大学的法学教授,也是几本关于堕胎和堕胎的书籍的作者

politics, including "After Roe: The Lost Historyof the Abortion Debate."(40)
政治,包括“After Roe:堕胎辩论的失落历史”。

Welcome to all of you.(41)
欢迎大家。

And thank you for being here.(42)
谢谢你来到这里。

Brian, let's start with you, where we leftoff in the piece, in Alabama, the most restrictive(43)
布莱恩,让我们从你开始,我们在阿拉巴马州的一块地方停下来,这是最严格的

abortion ban in the country.(44)
该国的堕胎禁令。

From your reporting, what do we know aboutwhy that bill was crafted the way that it(45)
从您的报告中,我们了解为什么该法案的制定方式与此相同

was?(46)
是?

BRIAN LYMAN, The Montgomery Advertiser: Thereis only within reason this bill was written(47)
蒙哥马利广告商BRIAN LYMAN:这个法案只有在合理范围内

the way it was.(48)
它的方式。

The supporters say they are trying to mounta direct challenge to Roe v. Wade.(49)
支持者表示,他们正试图对Roe v.Wade提出直接挑战。

They believe that this law will create a legalchallenge that they will probably lose in(50)
他们认为,这项法律将创造一个他们可能会失去的法律挑战

the lower courts, but they think they canappeal this all the way to the U.S. Supreme(51)
下级法院,但他们认为他们可以一直向美国最高法院上诉

Court, and they think with the current makeupof the Supreme Court, they think they can(52)
法院,他们认为,根据最高法院目前的构成,他们认为他们可以

get Roe overturned.(53)
让罗伊翻倒。

AMNA NAWAZ: Mary Ziegler, give us a littlebit of context here.(54)
AMNA NAWAZ:Mary Ziegler,在这里给我们一些背景信息。

Alabama is not alone in passing some of theserestrictions.(55)
阿拉巴马州并不是唯一一个通过这些限制的人。

A number of states have been making effortsover a number of years.(56)
许多州多年来一直在努力。

Give us the landscape.(57)
给我们一个风景。

What kinds of bills and restrictions havebeen making their way through state legislatures?(58)
什么样的法案和限制已经通过州立法机构?

MARY ZIEGLER, Florida State University Collegeof Law: Sure.(59)
MARY ZIEGLER,佛罗里达州立大学法学院:当然。

So I think this is more of a long shot, ifyou're looking at what the court is actually(60)
所以,如果你正在考虑法庭的实际情况,我认为这更像是一个长镜头

likely to do.(61)
很可能。

We have seen so-called heartbeat bills, includingone recently passed in Georgia, all of which(62)
我们已经看到了所谓的心跳账单,其中包括最近在格鲁吉亚通过的所有账单

ban abortion at roughly the sixth week ofpregnancy.(63)
在大约怀孕的第六周禁止堕胎。

And we have also seen more kind of incrementallegislation that tends to focus on later abortions,(64)
我们还看到了更多类型的增量立法,往往侧重于后来的堕胎,

including laws that ban abortion at 20 weekson the grounds of fetal pain prevention.(65)
包括以胎儿疼痛预防为由禁止在20周内进行堕胎的法律。

We have seen laws banning violation and evacuation,which is the most common second trimester(66)
我们已经看到禁止违规和撤离的法律,这是最常见的第二个三个月

procedure.(67)
程序。

And the Supreme Court even has a couple ofcases before it right now that it could choose(68)
而且最高法院现在还有几个案例可以选择

to hear, if it was so inclined, includinga law that was passed in Indiana when Mike(69)
听到,如果它是如此倾向,包括在迈克尔时在印第安纳州通过的法律

Pence was the governor.(70)
彭斯是州长。

AMNA NAWAZ: And I want to be clear about this,Mary Ziegler.(71)
AMNA NAWAZ:我想清楚这一点,Mary Ziegler。

A number of these incredibly restrictive billsthat have been pushed more recently, are any(72)
最近推出的一些令人难以置信的限制性法案是其中之一

of them actually in place?(73)
他们实际到位了吗?

Are they implemented on the ground?(74)
它们是否在实地实施?

MARY ZIEGLER: No, all of them have eitherbeen blocked by a court or haven't gone into(75)
MARY ZIEGLER:不,他们都被法庭封锁或者没有进入过

effect.(76)
影响。

And we wouldn't expect any of them to go intoeffect or not be challenged in a court.(77)
我们不希望他们中的任何一个生效或不在法庭上受到质疑。

So we're really not talking about any of theselaws being enforced in the near or mid-future.(78)
所以我们真的不是在谈论在近期或中期执行的任何这些法律。

AMNA NAWAZ: Anne Galloway, let's talk aboutVermont now.(79)
AMNA NAWAZ:Anne Galloway,我们现在谈谈佛蒙特州。

We have talked a lot about the abortion restrictionsthat have been going into place.(80)
我们已经谈了很多关于已经实施的堕胎限制的问题。

It's activity on the other end of the spectrumin Vermont.(81)
这是佛蒙特州另一端的活动。

There's two legislative efforts on the table.(82)
桌面上有两项立法工作。

Tell us what they do and how they would changecurrent abortion law in Vermont.(83)
告诉我们他们做了什么,以及他们将如何改变佛蒙特州目前的堕胎法。

ANNE GALLOWAY, Editor, VTDigger: Yes.(84)
ANNE GALLOWAY,编辑,VTDigger:是的。

Right now, Vermont law is silent on abortion.(85)
目前,佛蒙特州法律对堕胎保持沉默。

There are no restrictions or permissions inplace.(86)
没有任何限制或权限。

Lawmakers have proposed legislation that passedoverwhelmingly in both the House and Senate,(87)
立法者提议在众议院和参议院以压倒性优势通过立法,

and that Republican Governor Phil Scott ispoised to sign.(88)
共和党州长菲尔·斯科特准备签字。

This state statute would give blanket protectionfor abortion access across the state.(89)
该州法规将为全州的堕胎准入提供全面保护。

At the same time, lawmakers have put forwarda constitutional amendment that over the long(90)
与此同时,立法者提出了一项长期的宪法修正案

term would provide more permanent protectionfor the woman's right to choose.(91)
这一术语将为妇女的选择权提供更长久的保护。

AMNA NAWAZ: So, there's both a state law anda constitutional amendment effort under way.(92)
AMNA NAWAZ:所以,正在进行州法和宪法修正工作。

Why both?(93)
两个为什么?

ANNE GALLOWAY: Well, that's because lawmakersare very nervous about the conservative majority(94)
ANNE GALLOWAY:那是因为立法者对保守派多数人非常担心

on the U.S. Supreme Court, and the potentialfor the overturning of Roe vs. Wade.(95)
在美国最高法院,以及推翻罗伊与韦德的可能性。

And they really are developing contingencyplans should that happen, and they're really(96)
如果发生这种情况,他们真的正在制定应急计划,他们确实如此

belt-and-suspender-ing it here.(97)
皮带和吊带在这里。

The state statute gives some temporary protection.(98)
州法规给予了一些临时保护。

They're worried about a conservative governordown the road who might put rulemaking in(99)
他们担心会有一个保守的州长,可能会把规则制定纳入其中

place that could gut funding for abortionsin Vermont or that could restrict abortions(100)
可能会为佛蒙特州的堕胎提供资金或可能限制堕胎的地方

through insurance plans and that kind of thing.(101)
通过保险计划和那种事情。

So, long term, they feel that a constitutionalamendment is the best way to ensure that women(102)
因此,从长远来看,他们认为宪法修正案是确保女性的最佳方式

are able to access abortions in the future.(103)
能够在将来进入堕胎。

AMNA NAWAZ: Mary Ziegler, we hear a lot aboutthe restrictions that are being put into place.(104)
AMNA NAWAZ:Mary Ziegler,我们听到很多关于正在实施的限制措施。

Is Vermont alone in these kinds of efforts?(105)
佛蒙特州是否只有这些努力?

Are there other states that have been pushingthrough, trying to enshrine protections for(106)
还有其他国家一直在推动,试图为其提供保护

abortion rights?(107)
堕胎权利?

MARY ZIEGLER: Yes.(108)
MARY ZIEGLER:是的。

New York, obviously, is probably the bestknown, because its Reproductive Health Act(109)
显然,纽约可能是最知名的,因为它的“生殖健康法案”

attracted so much controversy.(110)
吸引了如此多的争议。

There 10 other states that already have protectionsfor abortion rights on their statute books(111)
还有其他10个州已经在其法规书上对堕胎权进行了保护

or in their state constitutions.(112)
或者在他们的州宪法中。

Other state courts are introducing protections.(113)
其他州法院正在引入保护措施。

For example, the Kansas Supreme Court recentlyissued a decision strongly protecting abortion(114)
例如,堪萨斯州最高法院最近发布了一项强烈保护堕胎的决定

in that state's constitution.(115)
在该州的宪法中。

And there are other states that are consideringmeasures now, including New Mexico.(116)
还有其他州正在考虑采取措施,包括新墨西哥州。

So we probably haven't seen the end of effortslike the ones in Vermont to kind of create(117)
因此,我们可能还没有看到像佛蒙特州那样努力的结束

a world in which abortion is protected insome states after Roe is gone.(118)
在罗伊离开之后,一些国家的堕胎受到保护的世界。

AMNA NAWAZ: So, Brian, back in Alabama, Iwant to be clear about this, though.(119)
AMNA NAWAZ:所以,Brian,回到阿拉巴马州,我想要清楚这一点。

The Republican legislators who voted for thisdid not include any exception for rape or(120)
投票支持这一点的共和党立法者不包括任何强奸或例外的例外

incest in this.(121)
在这乱伦乱伦。

So they did that only with the assumptionthat this law would never actually go into(122)
所以他们这样做只是假设这个法律永远不会真正进入

place.(123)
地点。

Is that right?(124)
是对的吗?

BRIAN LYMAN: The supporters of the bill arearguing this is purely a legal challenge to(125)
BRIAN LYMAN:该法案的支持者认为这纯粹是一个法律挑战

Roe vs. Wade.(126)
罗伊与韦德。

And they have kind of tried to hedge the effectsof this bill by arguing that, if Roe were(127)
他们试图通过争辩说,如果罗伊是这样的话,他们试图对这个法案的影响进行对冲

overturned, the state could come back anddo its own abortion law which could include(128)
推翻后,国家可以回来做自己的堕胎法,其中可能包括

these exceptions for rape and incest.(129)
强奸和乱伦的这些例外。

The problem is, is that there are two -- well,there are two problems.(130)
问题是,有两个 - 好吧,有两个问题。

One is that Alabama last fall approved a constitutionalamendment that said there was no right to(131)
一个是阿拉巴马州去年秋天批准了一项宪法修正案,该修正案表示没有权利

an abortion in the Alabama constitution, whichseems like it would make it more difficult(132)
阿拉巴马州宪法中的堕胎,似乎会使其更加困难

to address these exceptions in a post-Roeworld.(133)
在后Roe世界中解决这些例外。

The other -- the other issue here is thatthis legislature overwhelmingly voted to keep(134)
另一个 - 这里的另一个问题是,这个立法机构压倒性地投票支持

those rape and incest exceptions out of thebill.(135)
法案中的强奸和乱伦例外情况。

And these were not close votes.(136)
而这些并不是非常接近的选票。

So it's very hard to see how this currentlegislature, at the very least, would want(137)
因此,很难看出现有立法机构至少会想要这样做

to take up this issue again, after votingso overwhelmingly to not include exceptions(138)
在投票如此压倒性地不包括例外之后再次讨论这个问题

for sexual assault in this bill.(139)
在这项法案中进行性侵犯。

AMNA NAWAZ: And, very quickly, I wanted toask you.(140)
AMNA NAWAZ:而且,很快,我想问你。

We hear a lot about the -- and we saw a lotof the protesters right outside of the Alabama(141)
我们听到很多关于 - 我们在阿拉巴马州外面看到了很多抗议者

Statehouse, the pushback against the restrictions.(142)
州议会,反对限制的阻力。

Has there been any pushback in Vermont againstthe effort to protect abortion rights there?(143)
佛蒙特州是否有任何阻碍保护堕胎权利的努力?

ANNE GALLOWAY: Yes, there has been pushbackfrom the Vermont Right to Life Committee and(144)
ANNE GALLOWAY:是的,佛蒙特州生命权委员会和佛蒙特州已经有了阻力

from Bishop Christopher Coyne, the head ofthe Catholic Church here in Vermont.(145)
来自佛蒙特州天主教会主席Christopher Coyne主教。

But lawmakers overwhelmingly passed the abortionrights legislation that I mentioned earlier.(146)
但是立法者压倒性地通过了我之前提到的堕胎权立法。

And there were Republicans and Democrats alikewho backed it.(147)
共和党人和民主党人都支持它。

And, in point of fact, 70 percent of Vermontersin a recent Pew Research poll said that they(148)
而且,事实上,最近Pew Research民意调查中70%的Vermonters表示他们

support a woman's right to choose.(149)
支持女性的选择权。

So there is broad-level support here.(150)
所以这里有广泛的支持。

It's not a politically polarizing issue, asit is in other states.(151)
这不是一个政治两极分化的问题,就像在其他州一样。

AMNA NAWAZ: Mary Ziegler, this is the million-dollarquestion now.(152)
AMNA NAWAZ:Mary Ziegler,现在这是一个价值百万美元的问题。

Of course, all these restrictive efforts thathave been going into place, is this a question(153)
当然,所有这些限制性的努力已经到位,这是一个问题

of if or when one of these will get beforethe Supreme Court?(154)
如果或何时将其中一个提交给最高法院?

MARY ZIEGLER: I think it's a question of whenthe Supreme Court will reconsider Roe v. Wade.(155)
MARY ZIEGLER:我认为这是一个问题,即最高法院何时会重新考虑Roe v.Wade。

I don't think it's anything like a sure thingthat the Supreme Court will ever consider(156)
我认为这不是最高法院会考虑的确定事情

one of these extreme laws.(157)
这些极端法律之一。

I think it's telling that you had figureslike Pat Robertson coming out and saying,(158)
我认为这说明你有像Pat Robertson这样的人物出来说,

this is too far, and the Supreme Court won'tlike this kind of law.(159)
这太过分了,最高法院不会喜欢这种法律。

We know that Chief Justice Roberts is deeplyconcerned about the reputation of the court(160)
我们知道首席大法官罗伯茨对法院的声誉深表关注

and about optics, about keeping the courtabove the political fray, or at least appearing(161)
关于光学,关于保持法院高于政治斗争,或至少出现

to do so.(162)
这样做。

We know that Brett Kavanaugh, during his confirmationhearings, talked a lot about respect for precedent.(163)
我们知道Brett Kavanaugh在他的确认听证会上谈了很多关于先例的尊重。

And it would require the court to really undodecades of precedent in one decision, with(164)
这需要法院在一项决定中真正撤销数十年的先例

really very little advanced warning that thatwas going to happen.(165)
真的很少有先进的警告,即将发生的事情。

And that seems to be kind of a long shot.(166)
这似乎是一个长镜头。

I think we're much more likely to see thecourt unravel Roe more slowly by upholding(167)
我认为我们更有可能看到法院通过坚持更加缓慢地解开罗伊

kind of a series of more incremental restrictionsand offering some hints that Roe is not long(168)
一系列更多的增量限制,并提供一些提示,罗伊不长

for this world, and then getting rid of Roeentirely several years down the road, so more(169)
对于这个世界,然后在几年后完全摆脱了罗伊,所以更多

kind of like a death of 1,000 cuts than somethingsudden, which is what Alabama lawmakers seem(170)
有点像突然死亡的1000次减产,这正是阿拉巴马州立法者所看到的

to have in mind.(171)
记住。

AMNA NAWAZ: And is there a sense of a timelineof when that could happen?(172)
AMNA NAWAZ:是否有可能发生这种情况的时间表?

MARY ZIEGLER: We don't really know.(173)
MARY ZIEGLER:我们真的不知道。

I mean, it could start soon, or the courtmight want to stay out of abortion altogether(174)
我的意思是,它可能很快就会开始,或者法院可能希望完全避免堕胎

for a few years.(175)
在几年里。

I mean, I would guess in the next five years,but it's really unpredictable.(176)
我的意思是,我猜想在接下来的五年里,但这确实是不可预测的。

It's possible that the court could even upholda law like the Alabama law.(177)
法院甚至可以维护像阿拉巴马州法律这样的法律。

I wouldn't put money on it, but it's not outof the question.(178)
我不会把钱放在上面,但这不是不可能的。

I think we're looking more, though, at a seriesof judicial decisions over a number of years,(179)
不过,我认为我们在多年的一系列司法判决中看得更多,

not something that would happen in the next12 months.(180)
不会在未来12个月内发生。

AMNA NAWAZ: Mary Ziegler of Florida StateUniversity, Anne Galloway from Vermont's VTDigger,(181)
AMNA NAWAZ:佛罗里达州立大学的Mary Ziegler,佛蒙特州VTDigger的Anne Galloway,

and Brian Lyman from Alabama's MontgomeryAdvertiser, thanks to all of you for being(182)
来自阿拉巴马州蒙哥马利广告商的Brian Lyman感谢你们所有人

here.(183)
这里。

MARY ZIEGLER: Thanks for having us.(184)
MARY ZIEGLER:谢谢你的帮助。

ANNE GALLOWAY: Thank you.(185)
ANNE GALLOWAY:谢谢。

BRIAN LYMAN: Thank you.(186)
BRIAN LYMAN:谢谢。

AMNA NAWAZ: And an update on this story.(187)
AMNA NAWAZ:关于这个故事的最新消息。

Just moments ago, Alabama Governor Kay Iveysigned that abortion bill into law.(188)
就在不久之前,阿拉巴马州州长Kay Ivey将堕胎法案签署为法律。


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