Why the White House argues it can reject the House's impeachment requests
2019-10-09 00:00:00


JUDY WOODRUFF: It is clearer than ever theimpeachment process has put this country's(1)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫(JUDY WOODRUFF):弹imp程序比以往任何时候都更加清楚

legislative branch and executive branch intodirect conflict.(2)
立法部门与行政部门直接冲突。

A strongly worded letter from the White Houseyesterday informed House Democratic leaders(3)
白宫昨天的一封措辞强烈的信通知众议院民主党领导人

that it will not be complying with the impeachmentinquiry that is now under way.(4)
它将不符合目前正在进行的弹inquiry调查。

William Brangham has more.(5)
威廉·布朗汉(William Brangham)还有更多。

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Calling the entire impeachmentprocess illegitimate, that letter from the(6)
威廉·布朗汉姆(WILLIAM BRANGHAM):整个弹imp程序都被认为是非法的,

White House lays out its arguments as to whyit is completely rejecting the House's requests(7)
白宫提出其为何完全拒绝白宫要求的论点

for documents and witnesses for its inquiry.(8)
供文件和证人查询。

To help us decipher the legal footing forthis argument, I'm joined by Jamil Jaffer.(9)
为了帮助我们解释该论点的法律依据,我与贾米尔·贾弗(Jamil Jaffer)一起加入。

He's a professor of law at George Mason Universityand previously served as associate White House(10)
他是乔治·梅森大学的法学教授,此前曾担任白宫副研究员

counsel for President George W. Bush.(11)
布什总统的法律顾问。

Professor Jaffer, thank you very much forbeing here.(12)
贾弗教授,非常感谢您在这里。

Let's talk a little bit about the argumentsput out in that letter.(13)
让我们谈谈那封信中提出的论点。

One legal argument was made is that this issimply not a legitimate impeachment inquiry(14)
一个法律论点是,这根本不是合法的弹inquiry调查

because the full House has not voted to authorizethe impeachment inquiry.(15)
因为众议院尚未投票批准弹author调查。

Is that laid out in the Constitution as arequirement?(16)
这是《宪法》规定的要求吗?

JAMIL JAFFER, Former Senior Counsel, HouseIntelligence Committee: Well, William, there(17)
众议院情报委员会前高级顾问JAMIL JAFFER:好的,威廉

are no requirements in the Constitution forhow the House is supposed to conduct an impeachment(18)
《宪法》没有规定众议院应如何进行弹each

inquiry.(19)
查询。

But prior practice suggests that the Houseshould take a full -- a vote of the full House(20)
但是先前的实践表明,众议院应该以全票通过-众议院的投票

to initiate the impeachment inquiry.(21)
发起弹inquiry调查。

As you can imagine, this is a huge issue.(22)
可以想象,这是一个巨大的问题。

It's a conflict between two coordinate, co-equalbranches of the government, one investigating(23)
这是政府两个协调,平等的部门之间的冲突,其中一个正在调查

the other, somewhat outside of the normalpurview of what the House does.(24)
另一种则超出了众议院的正常职权范围。

Typically, the House does legislation andoversight.(25)
通常,众议院负责立法和监督。

This is a quasi-judicial proceeding.(26)
这是一个准司法程序。

And so it's been the practice, although certainlynot a constitutional requirement, for the(27)
因此,尽管肯定不是宪法要求,但这是惯例。

House to take a vote of the full House beforebeginning an impeachment inquiry.(28)
在开始弹each调查之前,众议院对众议院进行表决。

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: So there's no precedentfor it, but this -- I mean, there's precedent(29)
威廉·布朗汉姆(WILLIAM BRANGHAM):因此,这没有先例,但是-我的意思是,有先例

for this, but there's no requirement for it.(30)
为此,但没有要求。

Let's just say the House were to hold thisvote and formally call this an impeachment(31)
假设众议院举行这次投票,并正式将其称为弹imp

inquiry.(32)
查询。

Is there precedent then for the White Houseor the subject of impeachment to say, I'm(33)
那么白宫有没有先例或弹imp的话题说,我是

not participating?(34)
不参加吗?

JAMIL JAFFER: The challenge is, typically,in this scenario, when they when they vote(35)
JAMIL JAFFER:挑战通常是在这种情况下,当他们投票时

to pass a resolution to initiate an impeachmentinquiry, there are also procedural rules in(36)
为了通过一项发起弹initiate调查的决议,在

place which provide a certain amount of dueprocess to the potential target of the impeachment,(37)
为弹the的潜在目标提供一定数量的正当程序的地方,

in this case, the president of the UnitedStates, including the right to call witnesses,(38)
在这种情况下,美国总统,包括召集证人的权利,

the right to cross-examine, the right to bepresent or have counsel president at hearings(39)
盘问的权利,出席听证会或由辩护律师担任庭长的权利

and the like.(40)
等等。

And that's normally the process, in part.(41)
这通常是部分过程。

And it also gives process, by the way, proceduralrights, to the minority, typically so that(42)
顺便说一下,它还赋予了少数人以程序权利的程序,通常

the majority is not accused partisanship ordoing something inappropriate.(43)
多数人没有被指控存在党派关系或做任何不适当的事情。

So that's generally the ticktock.(44)
所以这通常是壁虱。

And so you see the White House saying, thisis illegitimate, it's inappropriate.(45)
因此,您会看到白宫在说,这是非法的,这是不适当的。

But they're basing that on practice, not ona legal requirement.(46)
但是他们的依据是实践,而不是法律要求。

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I see.(47)
威廉·布朗汉姆:我知道。

So that was the other argument that the WhiteHouse has been making, is that, you're not(48)
这是白宫一直在提出的另一种论点,那就是,你不是

letting us do all of the things that we thinkof as traditional due process.(49)
让我们做我们认为是传统正当程序的所有事情。

But wouldn't those -- in the normal procedure,wouldn't those happen in the Senate, meaning(50)
但是,在正常程序中,这些不是吗?在参议院中不会发生,这意味着

that the House votes to impeach or not, andthen, if impeached, the president takes his(51)
众议院投票决定是否弹imp,然后,如果被弹the,总统将

case, so to speak, to the Senate, where thedue process practices would occur?(52)
可以说,对参议院来说,适当的程序做法将在哪里发生?

JAMIL JAFFER: No, that's exactly right, William.(53)
杰米·贾弗(JAMIL JAFFER):没错,威廉。

And it's a point that a lot of people havebeen making out in the media over the last(54)
有一点是,过去很多人一直在媒体上发表意见

24 hours after we saw this letter, that, look,the impeachment proceeding in the House is(55)
在我们看到这封信的24小时后,看得出来,众议院的弹imp程序是

like a prosecutor doing an investigation,and then bringing charges before the grand(56)
就像检察官进行调查,然后向大法官起诉

jury.(57)
陪审团。

And then, eventually, the trial comes, andthat's in the Senate, where you have a jury,(58)
然后,最终审判开始了,那就是在参议院,那里有一个陪审团,

in this case, 100 senators, presided overby the chief justice.(59)
在这种情况下,由首席大法官主持的100名参议员。

And that's where the president or the person,the target of impeachment, gets to present(60)
这就是弹or目标的总统或个人

their case.(61)
他们的案子。

Now, that is -- that is true that that's -- thoseare the analogous proceedings in a -- in a(62)
现在-的确如此-那是-

criminal proceeding.(63)
刑事诉讼。

But, of course, an impeachment isn't a criminalproceeding.(64)
但是,当然,弹imp不是刑事诉讼。

It's a quasi-judicial proceeding.(65)
这是一个准司法程序。

It's a political matter.(66)
这是一个政治问题。

And, typically, because it's political andinvolves two co-equal branches of the government(67)
而且,通常是因为这是政治性的,涉及政府的两个平等部门

sort of going really head to head, it's beenthe practice of the House to give unusual(68)
真的是正面交锋,众议院的做法是

protections in the charging process to thetarget, because they recognize that if, in(69)
保护目标的收费过程,因为他们意识到如果

fact, the House is to vote articles of impeachment,even if the president isn't convicted, that(70)
事实上,即使总统没有被定罪,众议院也将对弹each条款进行表决,

that has huge effects on the presidency itselfand the person in the office of the president.(71)
这对总统本身和总统办公室的人都产生了巨大影响。

So they want to ensure also that they're notbeing seen as partisan, so they give rights(72)
因此,他们还希望确保自己不会被视为游击党,因此他们赋予了权利

that they wouldn't otherwise have to, to theother side in the minority in the impeachment(73)
他们原本就不需要弹,的少数人

inquiry, and to the target of the impeachment,in this case, the president.(74)
调查,并以弹the为目标,在这种情况下为总统。

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I know we say that thisis an inherently political process.(75)
威廉·布朗汉姆:我知道我们说这是一个固有的政治过程。

And, sometimes, in Washington, D.C., especially,that can be used as somewhat of a slur.(76)
而且,有时在华盛顿特区尤其如此,这可以说是一种侮辱。

But that's really by design in this case,right?(77)
但这实际上是设计使然,对吧?

I mean, the framers could have said, judgesonly handle impeachment.(78)
我的意思是,策划者可能会说,法官只能处理弹imp。

But, in this case, they knew, we are goingto let the political actors, the House and(79)
但是,在这种情况下,他们知道,我们将让政治角色,众议院和

the Senate, deal with this.(80)
参议院,处理这个。

JAMIL JAFFER: No, that's exactly right.(81)
JAMIL JAFFER:不,完全正确。

And it's actually also a reason why we'relikely to not see judges get involved in this(82)
这实际上也是为什么我们不太可能看到法官参与其中的原因

process, because, as we watch this processgo forward, you hear a lot of people saying,(83)
这个过程,因为当我们观看此过程时,您会听到很多人说:

well, what happens if the president doesn'tcomply?(84)
好吧,如果总统不遵守规定怎么办?

Can Congress go to -- can the House go tothe courts and try to get an enforcement of(85)
国会可以去-众议院可以去法院并试图强制执行

subpoenas?(86)
传票?

That's a possibility.(87)
这是可能的。

That may happen.(88)
那可能发生。

But what if the president just refuses todo anything and refuses to comply with the(89)
但是,如果总统只是拒绝做任何事情并且拒绝遵守

current inquiry, right?(90)
当前查询,对不对?

One might say, well, the courts are likelyto stay out of it, because this is a quintessential(91)
也许有人会说,法院很可能不会这样做,因为这是一种典型

political question, that is, a question thatthe Constitution texturally commits to the(92)
政治问题,即宪法在结构上致力于

coordinate branches, the political branchesof the government, because -- because the(93)
协调政府的政治部门,因为-因为

Constitution, our founders, our framers didn'tintend for this process to be in the courts.(94)
宪法,我们的创始人,我们的制宪者不打算将这一程序提上法庭。

They intended for it to be in the hands ofthe House on the one hand and in the Senate(95)
他们打算一方面将其交由众议院控制,另一方面由参议院控制

for the trial and the ultimate decision onthe other.(96)
对于审判和最终决定权。

And they didn't define, by the way, what theymeant by high crimes and misdemeanors.(97)
顺便说一下,他们并没有定义高犯罪率和轻罪的含义。

It's a term in the Constitution.(98)
这是宪法中的术语。

It definitely had a meaning at the time theywrote it, but it wasn't defined anywhere in(99)
在他们写它的时候肯定有含义,但是在它的任何地方都没有定义。

there.(100)
那里。

And there's no -- there's no specific standardin the Constitution by which the House or(101)
而且,在《宪法》中没有具体标准,众议院或

the Senate must judge the president.(102)
参议院必须评判总统。

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: All right, Jamil Jafferof George Mason University, thank you very(103)
WILLIAM BRANGHAM:好的,乔治·梅森大学的Jamil Jaffer,非常感谢

much for being here.(104)
非常感谢在这里。

JAMIL JAFFER: Thanks, William.(105)
杰米·贾弗(JAMIL JAFFER):谢谢威廉。


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