Why Guaido official believes regime change in Venezuela is non-negotiable
2019-08-15 00:00:00


Both the leadership and the future of Venezuelaare in deadlock.(1)
委内瑞拉的领导和未来都处于僵局。

Opposition leader Juan Guaido, whom the U.S.recognizes as president, has so far been unable(2)
美国承认为总统的反对党领袖胡安瓜伊多迄今未能成功

to oust the sitting president, Nicolas Maduro.(3)
推翻现任总统尼古拉斯·马杜罗。

Maduro retains support within the all-powerfulVenezuelan military.(4)
马杜罗在全能的委内瑞拉军队中保留了支持。

The two sides were at the negotiating tableearlier this month, when Maduro left in protest(5)
本月早些时候,当马杜罗离开抗议时,双方正在谈判桌上

of new U.S. sanctions.(6)
新的美国制裁。

Joining me now is Ambassador Carlos Vecchio,who represents the Guaido government in Washington.(7)
现在加入我的是代表华盛顿Guaido政府的Carlos Vecchio大使。

Ambassador Vecchio, welcome back to the “NewsHour”.(8)
维奇奥大使,欢迎回到“新闻时报”。

CARLOS VECCHIO, VENEZUELAN AMBASSADOR TO THEU.S.: Thank you for having me.(9)
CARLOS VECCHIO,VENEZUELAN AMBASSADOR到美国:谢谢你的帮助。

AMNA NAWAZ: So, last week, the Trump administrationintroduced tougher sanctions.(10)
AMNA NAWAZ:所以,上周,特朗普政府实施了更严厉的制裁。

I have to ask you, Maduro has survived previoussanctions, protest, international pressure,(11)
我不得不问你,马杜罗在以前的制裁,抗议和国际压力下幸免于难,

even internal attempts to oust him.(12)
甚至内部企图驱逐他。

Do you think these new sanctions will haveany effect?(13)
你认为这些新的制裁会有什么影响吗?

CARLOS VECCHIO: Absolutely.(14)
CARLOS VECCHIO:绝对。

I don't have any doubt that these will putmore pressure inside of the Maduro regime(15)
我毫不怀疑这些会给马杜罗政权带来更多压力

and will help to force Maduro to further negotiationto facilitate a transition in our country.(16)
并将有助于迫使马杜罗进一步谈判,以促进我国的过渡。

So, it is important to highlight that thesesanctions or this executive order is targeting(17)
因此,重要的是要强调这些制裁或此行政命令的目标

the Maduro regime, is targeting the innercircle of Maduro and the people who are helping(18)
马杜罗政权,目标是马杜罗的内心圈子和正在帮助的人

Maduro to stay in power.(19)
马杜罗继续掌权。

It's not against Venezuelans.(20)
这不是针对委内瑞拉人的。

The second point that is important in my view,this executive order is protecting the Venezuelan(21)
在我看来,第二点很重要,这个行政命令正在保护委内瑞拉人

assets here to avoid the looting of our nation,to preserve those assets in favor of Venezuela.(22)
这里的资产是为了避免掠夺我们的国家,保护那些有利于委内瑞拉的资产。

And also, it is important to mention thatthis executive order allows transactions,(23)
而且,重要的是要提到这个行政命令允许交易,

you know, related to food and medicines, andhumanitarian aid to the Venezuelan people.(24)
你知道,这与食品和药品以及对委内瑞拉人民的人道主义援助有关。

So, it's putting, you know, the pressure whereit should be.(25)
所以,它知道应该是应该承受的压力。

AMNA NAWAZ: At the same time, though, sanctionswere what forced Maduro to say enough and(26)
AMNA NAWAZ:与此同时,制裁是迫使马杜罗说得足够多的

walk away from those talks.(27)
离开那些谈话。

Those talks offered some chance for a pathforward.(28)
这些谈判为前进的道路提供了一些机会。

Is that path now gone?(29)
这条路现在消失了吗?

CARLOS VECCHIO: I mean, if you put this incontext.(30)
CARLOS VECCHIO:我的意思是,如果你把它放在上下文中。

I mean, Maduro has always used negotiationsas a way to manipulate the international community.(31)
我的意思是,马杜罗一直将谈判作为操纵国际社会的一种方式。

They have not agreed to anything on thosenegotiations.(32)
他们没有就这些谈判达成任何协议。

So, the important things in my view is thatto increase the pressure, not internationally,(33)
所以,我认为重要的是增加压力,而不是国际压力,

internally, inside of Venezuela.(34)
内部,委内瑞拉境内。

We have the majority of Venezuelans lookingfor a change.(35)
我们让大多数委内瑞拉人都在寻求改变。

More than 85 percent of the people of Venezuelaare looking for a change.(36)
委内瑞拉超过85%的人正在寻求改变。

We have a legitimate president in Venezuela,Juan Guaido.(37)
我们在委内瑞拉有一位合法的总统Juan Guaido。

Juan Guaido has become the most importantperson and popular in Venezuela in the last(38)
Juan Guaido已成为最重要的人物,并在委内瑞拉最后流行

20 years, without appearing in the nationaltelevision.(39)
20年,没有出现在国家电视台。

So, we have the support.(40)
所以,我们得到了支持。

AMNA NAWAZ: But let me ask you about thosetalks.(41)
AMNA NAWAZ:但是让我问你这些谈话。

They are ongoing.(42)
他们正在进行中。

Do you think they will lead anywhere?(43)
你认为他们会带领吗?

Even though Maduro has left?(44)
虽然马杜罗离开了?

CARLOS VECCHIO: We need to force them.(45)
CARLOS VECCHIO:我们需要强迫他们。

We need to force them.(46)
我们需要强迫他们。

We need to conquer the power.(47)
我们需要征服力量。

They won’t give you the power, because weare dealing with a criminal state.(48)
他们不会给你权力,因为我们正在处理一个犯罪国家。

We are dealing with a criminal organization.(49)
我们正在与犯罪组织打交道。

That is posh to keep in mind.(50)
这是值得记住的。

That's why it's important to put more pressureon the Maduro regime.(51)
这就是为什么对马杜罗政权施加更大压力的重要性。

AMNA NAWAZ: Let me ask you about the militarysupport that Maduro currently has.(52)
AMNA NAWAZ:让我问你马杜罗目前的军事支持。

Last month, my colleague Nick Schifrin actuallyspoke with Maduro's former intelligence chief(53)
上个月,我的同事Nick Schifrin实际上与马杜罗的前情报主管进行了交谈

--(54)
-

CARLOS VECCHIO: Uh-huh.(55)
CARLOS VECCHIO:嗯。

AMNA NAWAZ: -- General Figuera, who has sincerather defected to the U.S.(56)
AMNA NAWAZ: - 菲格拉将军,后来叛逃到美国

I want you to take a listen to what he toldmy colleague Nick Schifrin then.(57)
我想让你听听他告诉我的同事Nick Schifrin的话。

CARLOS VECCHIO: OK.(58)
CARLOS VECCHIO:好的。

Great.(59)
大。

GEN.(60)
GEN。

MANUEL RICARDO CRISTOPHER FIGUERA, FORMERVENEZUELAN INTELLIGENCE CHIEF (through translator):(61)
MANUEL RICARDO CRISTOPHER FIGUERA,前任委内瑞拉情报部长(通过翻译):

Having worked firsthand with Nicolas Maduro,after telling him about all the eruption I(62)
在与Nicolas Maduro一起工作之后,他告诉了我所有的火山爆发

saw, I realized there was no will, too muchevil, and too much desire for power.(63)
看到了,我意识到没有意志,太多的邪恶,以及对权力的太多渴望。

AMNA NAWAZ: Is there any way you think totake away some of that military support toe(64)
AMNA NAWAZ:你有什么想法可以带走一些军事支持

eventually further weaken Maduro?(65)
最终进一步削弱了马杜罗?

CARLOS VECCHIO: Well, Figuera is one example.(66)
CARLOS VECCHIO:嗯,菲格拉就是一个例子。

AMNA NAWAZ: But he is just one.(67)
AMNA NAWAZ:但他只是一个人。

CARLOS VECCHIO: A clear example.(68)
CARLOS VECCHIO:一个明显的例子。

But they have detained 200 military officersin Venezuela.(69)
但他们在委内瑞拉拘留了200名军官。

They have been detained.(70)
他们被拘留了。

They have been tortured.(71)
他们受到了折磨。

And we have been having contacts with manymiddle and lower ranks of the military institution.(72)
我们一直与军事机构的许多中下层接触。

And they are Venezuelans.(73)
他们是委内瑞拉人。

They are suffering the same thing that ordinarypeople are suffering.(74)
他们正在遭受普通人所遭受的痛苦。

And at the end of the day, they will supportthe people of Venezuela who are looking for(75)
在一天结束时,他们将支持正在寻找的委内瑞拉人民

a change.(76)
变化。

It is important to mention also that we cannotevaluate this as a single event.(77)
值得一提的是,我们无法将此评估为单个事件。

This is an ongoing process.(78)
这是一个持续的过程。

We have been climbing a mountain every singleday, moving forward.(79)
我们每天都在爬山,向前迈进。

We're very close to the peak.(80)
我们非常接近峰值。

I don't have any doubt that we'll conquerfreedom again.(81)
我毫不怀疑我们会再次征服自由。

AMNA NAWAZ: Well, to that point, it's beengoing on for so long.(82)
AMNA NAWAZ:那么,到目前为止,它已经持续了很长时间。

The talks do continue.(83)
会谈继续进行。

Are you concerned that the longer this goeson, Maduro can just run out the clock until(84)
你是否担心这种情况持续的时间越长,马杜罗可能会耗尽时间直到

maybe regime change as an interest goes awayin the international community.(85)
也许政权改变,因为国际社会的兴趣消失了。

CARLOS VECCHIO: We need to keep, you know,our determination internally and also outside(86)
CARLOS VECCHIO:我们需要在内部和外部保持我们的决心

of Venezuela with the coalition that we havecreated.(87)
委内瑞拉与我们建立的联盟。

AMNA NAWAZ: But do you think you can keepthat up?(88)
AMNA NAWAZ:但你认为你可以保持这种状态吗?

CARLOS VECCHIO: Absolutely, because when you'refighting for freedom -- I mean, you never(89)
CARLOS VECCHIO:当然,因为当你为自由而战 - 我的意思是,你永远不会

lose momentum.(90)
失去动力。

You know, freedom is there and we will prevail.(91)
你知道,自由就在那里,我们将占上风。

You know, I’m fully confident, because themajority of Venezuela right now are looking(92)
你知道,我完全有信心,因为现在委内瑞拉的大部分人都在寻找

for a change.(93)
改变。

In my view, we are in an irreversible processof change that.(94)
在我看来,我们处在一个不可逆转的变革过程中。

And that change will come.(95)
而这种变化将会到来。

And so, I don't have any doubt and I’m fullyconfident that we will prevail.(96)
所以,我没有任何疑问,我完全相信我们会占上风。

AMNA NAWAZ: Is full regime change the onlyacceptable outcome?(97)
AMNA NAWAZ:完全政权改变是唯一可接受的结果吗?

Would you accept any -- a new election, say,in which Maduro is also allowed to stay?(98)
你会接受任何一项新选举,比如马杜罗也被允许留下来吗?

CARLOS VECCHIO: So, what we want to do isresolve the political crisis, which has been(99)
CARLOS VECCHIO:那么,我们想要做的就是解决一直存在的政治危机

created by Maduro.(100)
由马杜罗创建。

And --(101)
而且 -

AMNA NAWAZ: Does that include Maduro?(102)
AMNA NAWAZ:这包括Maduro吗?

CARLOS VECCHIO: And the only way to resolvethis is putting an end of the dictatorship.(103)
CARLOS VECCHIO:解决这个问题的唯一方法就是结束独裁统治。

It's the only way to resolve that.(104)
这是解决这个问题的唯一方法。

AMNA NAWAZ: So, that’s a no.(105)
AMNA NAWAZ:那是不是。

CARLOS VECCHIO: Otherwise -- otherwise, thehumanitarian crisis will stay in Venezuela.(106)
CARLOS VECCHIO:否则 - 否则,人道主义危机将留在委内瑞拉。

So, we need the take Maduro out of power.(107)
所以,我们需要把马杜罗带走。

We need to set a transitional government.(108)
我们需要建立一个过渡政府。

And we need to call for a free and fair electionin Venezuela.(109)
我们需要在委内瑞拉召开一次自由公正的选举。

That’s the agenda to resolve the politicalcrisis in our country.(110)
这是解决我国政治危机的议程。

And this is our proposal.(111)
这是我们的提议。

And that's why we have been asking for thesupport of the international community.(112)
这就是为什么我们一直在寻求国际社会的支持。

AMNA NAWAZ: In the meantime, I have to askyou, I have been on the border between Venezuela(113)
AMNA NAWAZ:与此同时,我不得不问你,我一直在委内瑞拉边境

and Brazil.(114)
和巴西。

I have met some of those families --(115)
我见过一些家庭 -

CARLOS VECCHIO: Uh-huh.(116)
CARLOS VECCHIO:嗯。

AMNA NAWAZ: -- who traveled days without eating,carrying their children and whatever else(117)
AMNA NAWAZ: - 没有吃饭,带着孩子和其他任何东西旅行的日子

they can.(118)
他们能。

Their children, many of them have only everlived in this state as it is right now.(119)
他们的孩子,他们中的许多人只是像现在一样生活在这个州。

They're malnourished.(120)
他们营养不良。

They’re going to suffer for the rest oftheir lives.(121)
他们将在余生中受苦。

What is your message to them the longer thistakes to unfold?(122)
你展开的时间越长,你对他们的信息是什么?

CARLOS VECCHIO: Well, this is a man-made disaster.(123)
CARLOS VECCHIO:嗯,这是一场人为的灾难。

They have more than four million Venezuelansto get out of our country looking far better(124)
他们有400多万委内瑞拉人离开我们的国家看起来好得多

future.(125)
未来。

Maduro has created the largest refugee crisisin this continent, and if Maduro continues(126)
马杜罗创造了这个大陆最大的难民危机,如果马杜罗继续下去的话

in power, will be the first one in the world.(127)
掌权,将成为世界上第一个。

You know, it will be even more important thanthe Syrian refugee crisis.(128)
你知道,这比叙利亚难民危机更重要。

So we need to stop this.(129)
所以我们需要阻止这一点。

My message to them is that we are lookingfor a change in Venezuela, that we'll want(130)
我给他们的信息是,我们正在寻找委内瑞拉的变革,这是我们想要的

to set a transitional government in Venezuela,and we would like to restore a democratic(131)
在委内瑞拉设立过渡政府,我们希望恢复民主

system so that we will have the conditionsfor the return of all Venezuelans to recover(132)
系统,以便我们将有条件让所有委内瑞拉人返回

our country.(133)
我们的国家。

That's my main message.(134)
这是我的主要信息。

And also, we need to understand that Madurois a threat not only against Venezuelans,(135)
而且,我们需要了解马杜罗不仅是对委内瑞拉人的威胁,

is against the entire region.(136)
是反对整个地区。

And if we want to have political stabilityin the region, we need to conquer freedom(137)
如果我们想在该地区实现政治稳定,我们就需要征服自由

again.(138)
再次。

AMNA NAWAZ: Ambassador Carlos Vecchio, thankyou very much for being here.(139)
AMNA NAWAZ:卡洛斯·维奇奥大使,非常感谢你们来到这里。

CARLOS VECCHIO: Thank you, Amna.(140)
CARLOS VECCHIO:谢谢你,Amna。


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