Shields and Brooks on Virginia turmoil, Supreme Court abortion ruling
2019-02-08 00:00:00


AMNA NAWAZ: Virginia and the country weighthe transgressions of the state's top leaders(1)
AMNA NAWAZ:弗吉尼亚和这个国家权衡了该州最高领导人的违法行为

in a moment of reckoning.(2)
在一个清算的时刻。

And, in Washington, Democrats flex their newpower in the House, starting with investigating(3)
而且,在华盛顿,民主党从调查开始,在众议院中展示他们的新权力

the president, bringing us to the analysisof Shields and Brooks.(4)
总统,带我们分析希尔兹和布鲁克斯。

That's syndicated columnist Mark Shields andNew York Times columnist David Brooks.(5)
这是辛迪加专栏作家马克·希尔兹和“纽约时报”专栏作家大卫·布鲁克斯。

Welcome to you both.(6)
欢迎你们俩。

Happy Friday.(7)
星期五快乐。

So, let's start in Virginia.(8)
那么,让我们从弗吉尼亚开始。

I want to bring up a couple of tweets realquick, because we have had late-breaking news(9)
我想快速提出几条推文,因为我们有最新消息

on this.(10)
就此而言。

There has been a second allegation of assaultagainst Lieutenant Governor Justin Fairfax,(11)
第二项袭击中尉总督贾斯汀费尔法克斯的指控,

leading to former Governor Terry McAuliffeto now call for Fairfax's resignation.(12)
导致前州长特里麦考利夫现在要求费尔法克斯辞职。

He says the allegations are serious and credibleand he doesn't believe Fairfax can effectively(13)
他说这些指控是严肃和可信的,他不相信费尔法克斯可以有效

serve the people of Virginia.(14)
为弗吉尼亚人民服务。

I should note other lawmakers have now joinedthat call for him to resign.(15)
我应该注意到其他立法者现在也加入了要求他辞职的呼吁。

And Fairfax has also issued a statement inresponse, calling the allegations an obvious(16)
费尔法克斯也发表了一份声明,称这些指控显而易见

-- sorry -- "vicious and coordinated smearcampaign" orchestrated against him, and he(17)
- 抱歉 - “恶毒和协调的诽谤运动”精心策划了他和他

says he will not resign.(18)
说他不会辞职。

So, Mark, start us off here.(19)
所以,马克,在这里开始吧。

There's a lot happening in Virginia, still.(20)
弗吉尼亚州仍然发生了很多事情。

It's still evolving.(21)
它仍在不断发展。

What do you make of how it's been handledby leader there so far?(22)
到目前为止,你对领导者如何处理它有何看法?

MARK SHIELDS: Terribly.(23)
MARK SHIELDS:非常棒。

The late Mo Udall wisely said that, when theDemocrats organize a firing squad, they first(24)
已故的莫乌德尔明智地说,当民主党组织一个行刑队时,他们首先

form a circle.(25)
形成一个圆圈。

And I would say that's gone on.(26)
我会说这已经过去了。

I think each of the cases has to be treatedseparately.(27)
我认为每个案件都必须单独处理。

I do think that Governor Northam -- politics,to begin with, is not brain surgery.(28)
我认为总督诺瑟姆 - 政治,首先不是脑部手术。

It's about addition, and not subtraction.(29)
这是关于加法,而不是减法。

It's about a party that welcomes people toits ranks, that warmly embraces newcomers(30)
这是一个欢迎人们加入其行列的派对,热情地欢迎新人

and accepts converts happily and finds commonground.(31)
并乐意接受皈依并找到共同点。

A losing political party is one that spendstime, energy and effort hunting down heretics(32)
失败的政党是花费时间,精力和努力追捕异教徒的政党

and banishing them to the outer darkness becausethey don't subscribe totally to the received(33)
并将他们驱逐到外面的黑暗中,因为他们不完全赞同收到的

wisdom.(34)
智慧。

The Democrats in Virginia have played thatsecond role.(35)
弗吉尼亚州的民主党人扮演了第二个角色。

They had, in Ralph Northam, a popular governorwho had secured passage of Medicaid for 400,000(36)
他们在拉尔夫·诺瑟姆(Ralph Northam),一位受欢迎的州长,已经获得了40万美元的医疗补助计划

Virginians, something long promised, who hadrun against the NRA, gave them an F rating,(37)
长期承诺的弗吉尼亚人,曾经反对NRA,给了他们F评级,

he took them on, on universal background charges,who, in the most segregated day in America,(38)
他以普遍的背景指控接受了他们,在美国最隔离的日子里,

which is Sunday morning, when people go tochurch with people of their own race, belongs(39)
这是星期天早上,当人们与自己种族的人一起去教堂时,属于

to a church with 60 percent African-Americans,with an African-American pastor.(40)
一个拥有60%非洲裔美国人的教会,以及一位非裔美国人的牧师。

And all of that is forgotten, all of thatis tossed aside blithely because of one yearbook(41)
所有这一切都被遗忘了,因为一本年鉴,所有这一切都被轻快地抛到了一边

page which was hateful, hurtful and absolutelyindefensible.(42)
令人厌恶,伤害和绝对无法辨认的页面。

But I just -- I thought the stampede on thepart of national Democrats, and including(43)
但我只是 - 我认为民族民主党人的踩踏事件,包括

Democrats as honorable as Tim Kaine, the formergovernor, and senator of Virginia, to toss(44)
民主党人作为前任州长蒂姆凯恩和弗吉尼亚州参议员一样光荣

him out, to demand his resignation was reallyunacceptable.(45)
他要求辞职是非常不可接受的。

I really did.(46)
我真的做到了。

AMNA NAWAZ: What did you make of this, David?(47)
AMNA NAWAZ:大卫,你是怎么做到的?

Did you think it was a stampede?(48)
你认为这是踩踏事件吗?

DAVID BROOKS: A bit.(49)
大卫布鲁克斯:有点儿。

Men turn out to be a problem.(50)
结果是男人成了问题。

There's a lot of male bad behavior.(51)
有很多男性不良行为。

Maybe we should have only women leading ourstates.(52)
也许我们应该只有女性领导我们的州。

That might solve these problems.(53)
这可能会解决这些问题。

I think there are two different cases here.(54)
我认为这里有两种不同的情况。

The Fairfax case, the Justin Fairfax case,is suddenly looking to be the much more serious(55)
费尔法克斯案,贾斯汀费尔法克斯案,突然看起来更加严重

of the two to me, that there's multiple -- twowomen making allegations, with some suggestion(56)
对我来说,有两个 - 两个女人提出指控,有一些建议

that there is contemporaneous evidence, thathe assaulted them.(57)
有同时期的证据,他殴打他们。

And so that, to me, it turns out, is the mostserious one to me.(58)
事实证明,对我来说,这对我来说是最严重的。

I would say he's in the post peril.(59)
我会说他处于危险之中。

He might have done an actual crime.(60)
他可能犯了一个真正的罪行。

So, there, I think -- I'm always very slowto call for resignations.(61)
所以,在那里,我想 - 我总是要求辞职。

It makes everybody feel good.(62)
它让每个人都感觉良好。

But I really believe in investigating.(63)
但我真的相信调查。

And so somebody should be investigating thatone.(64)
所以有人应该调查那一个。

On the Northam case, you know, what he does-- we spoke about it briefly, because the(65)
在诺瑟姆的案例中,你知道,他做了什么 - 我们简要地谈了一下,因为

news had just broken last week -- that whathe did was appalling and hateful.(66)
上周新闻刚刚破裂 - 他所做的是令人震惊和可恨的。

And yet I do think, in a lot of these cases,that there should be some path to redemption.(67)
然而,在很多这种情况下,我确实认为应该有一些赎回之路。

And that path should involve an apology.(68)
而这条道路应该涉及道歉。

It should involve a lifetime or decades oryears of service in the cause.(69)
它应该包括一生或几十年或几年的服务。

And Northam, frankly, his record on civilrights is quite good.(70)
坦率地说,诺瑟姆的公民权利记录相当不错。

And so whatever hateful thing he may or maynot have done as a med student, it's not evident(71)
因此,作为一名医学生,他可能会或可能不会做任何可恨的事情,但这并不明显

in his adult behavior.(72)
在他的成人行为。

And I do think that that mitigates towardsome sense of leniency.(73)
我确实认为这会缓解一些宽大感。

Then maybe he can spend the rest of his governorshipcontinuing good work, heightened because of(74)
然后也许他可以继续他的州长的其余部分继续做好工作,因为

what he did as a young man.(75)
他作为一个年轻人做了什么。

So, to me, to throw -- to destroy a reasonablygood career, whether you -- for -- over this(76)
因此,对我来说,抛弃 - 摧毁一个相当不错的职业,无论你是否 - 为此

thing is probably not -- we do not have asurplus of good people in public life.(77)
事情可能不是 - 我们在公共生活中没有多余的好人。

AMNA NAWAZ: I wonder, though, Mark, becausethe Democrats rely on votes from minority(78)
AMNA NAWAZ:不过,我想知道Mark,因为民主党依靠少数民族的选票

voters, African-Americans in particular, inVirginia.(79)
选民,特别是非洲裔美国人,弗吉尼亚州。

When you have Herring and Northam both admittingto wearing blackface, and Northam not handling(80)
当你让Herring和Northam都承认戴黑脸时,诺瑟姆不会处理

it particularly well, showing very awkwardconversation afterwards and admitting that,(81)
特别好,后来表现得非常尴尬,并承认,

doesn't that lose them some moral high grounddown the line?(82)
难道不会让他们失去一些道德高地吗?

MARK SHIELDS: Oh, sure.(83)
MARK SHIELDS:哦,当然。

I mean, and you're being excessively charitableby saying not handle it well.(84)
我的意思是,如果你说处理得不好,你就会过度慈善。

I mean, he handled it terribly.(85)
我的意思是,他处理得非常糟糕。

But, I mean, the attorney general turns outto be the real ace of the week by -- he demanded(86)
但是,我的意思是,司法部长在他要求的情况下证明了本周真正的王牌

that the governor resign for his yearbookpicture, and then remembered photographic(87)
州长为他的年鉴图片辞职,然后记得摄影

evidence of his doing something quite similar,if not identical, when he was at the University(88)
他在大学期间做一些非常相似的事情的证据,如果不相同的话

of Virginia.(89)
弗吉尼亚州

And he's been far more fulsome, articulate,almost eloquent in his apology.(90)
在他的道歉中,他更加充实,口齿伶俐,几乎雄辩。

And so now it comes down to not the act itself.(91)
所以现在归结为不是行为本身。

And I agree with David.(92)
我同意大卫的观点。

What the lieutenant governor -- the allegationsagainst the lieutenant governor, I mean, are(93)
副州长 - 我的意思是指对副州长的指控

potentially criminal.(94)
潜在的犯罪。

I mean, we're not talking about bad tasteor insensitivity or racial insensitivity.(95)
我的意思是,我们不是在谈论不良品味或不敏感或种族不敏感。

So I do think that they are very differentcharges.(96)
所以我认为他们收费差异很大。

DAVID BROOKS: Yes.(97)
大卫布鲁克斯:是的。

And it should be said, when I mentioned theroad to redemption...(98)
应该说,当我提到救赎之路......

AMNA NAWAZ: Yes.(99)
AMNA NAWAZ:是的。

MARK SHIELDS: Yes.(100)
MARK SHIELDS:是的。

DAVID BROOKS: ... frankly, to be honest, it'snot white people who have the -- who are in(101)
大卫布鲁克斯:坦率地说,老实说,不是那些拥有 - 谁是白人的白人

the position to offer forgiveness.(102)
提供宽恕的立场。

The African-American community is the onethat was wronged by this.(103)
非洲裔美国人社区就是被这个人所冤屈的社区。

And so it's trying to work with them and sortof humble oneself before them that I think(104)
因此,它正试图与他们合作,并且在我认为他们面前谦卑自己

is the ultimate court here.(105)
是这里的终极法院。

And that would be a good role for any governorin any state to do something like that.(106)
这对任何州的州长来说都是一个很好的角色。

MARK SHIELDS: He had the endorsement, Northamhad the endorsement of every African-American(107)
MARK SHIELDS:他得到了支持,诺瑟姆得到了每一位非洲裔美国人的支持

lawmaker in the state when he ran.(108)
他跑的州议员。

So it's not like he's unfamiliar with thatconstituency.(109)
所以这并不像他不熟悉那个选区。

AMNA NAWAZ: Yes.(110)
AMNA NAWAZ:是的。

Let's move on now to Democrats in the House.(111)
让我们继续前往众议院的民主党人。

MARK SHIELDS: Sure.(112)
MARK SHIELDS:当然。

AMNA NAWAZ: Speaking of investigations there,it's been a busy week for them, David, launching(113)
AMNA NAWAZ:谈到那里的调查,对他们来说,这是一个繁忙的一周,大卫,发布

oversight investigations into the Trump Organization,threatening subpoenas.(114)
对特朗普组织进行监督调查,威胁传票。

They came out at a quite a pace.(115)
他们以相当快的速度出场。

Is it sustainable?(116)
它可持续吗?

Are they sending a message?(117)
他们正在发送消息吗?

What's going on here?(118)
这里发生了什么?

DAVID BROOKS: Yes, I wonder about the wordinvestigation.(119)
大卫布鲁克斯:是的,我想知道调查这个词。

Are we investigating, or are we having justtelevision shows?(120)
我们正在调查,还是只有电视节目?

And Matthew Whitaker was on -- was in thehearings today.(121)
马修惠特克上场 - 今天在听证会上。

The guy is going to be out of office probablyin a few days, because Bill Barr is going(122)
这家伙可能会在几天之内离开办公室,因为比尔巴尔会去

to be -- become the actual attorney general.(123)
成为 - 实际的司法部长。

So, what exactly was the purpose of that show?(124)
那么,这个节目的目的到底是什么?

And these days, when you get one of thesetelevised hearings, they're not investigations.(125)
而现在,当你接到其中一个电视听证会时,他们就不会进行调查。

They are shows.(126)
他们是节目。

And I'm struck by how Congress has shiftedthat way.(127)
我对国会如何改变这种方式感到震惊。

I was reading Kamala Harris' memoir last week.(128)
我上周正在阅读卡玛拉哈里斯的回忆录。

And she describes her Senate career not asa series of legislations, but as a series(129)
她将参议院的职业生涯描述为一系列立法,而不是一系列立法

of confrontational moments at a hearing thatwere televised.(130)
在电视听证会上的对抗时刻

And I think, for a lot of members now, thatis what being in Congress is.(131)
而且我认为,对于现在的很多成员来说,这就是国会中的情况。

And so sometimes you get real investigations,but I'm dubious that we're going to see a(132)
所以有时你会得到真正的调查,但我怀疑我们会看到一个

lot of actual investigating.(133)
很多实际的调查。

AMNA NAWAZ: What do you make of that, Mark?(134)
AMNA NAWAZ:你是怎么做到的,马克?

Are they looking for answers, or are theyjust putting on a show?(135)
他们是在寻找答案,还是只是在演出?

MARK SHIELDS: Well, both, obviously.(136)
MARK SHIELDS:嗯,两个,显然。

I will -- I will say this.(137)
我会 - 我会说这个。

I mean, I think the Democrats won last fallbecause of health care, because the Republicans(138)
我的意思是,我认为民主党去年秋天因医疗保健而获胜,因为共和党人

tried to repeal health care.(139)
试图废除医疗保健。

I think the Democrats ought to spend time,effort, energy trying to guarantee that that(140)
我认为民主党应该花时间,精力和精力来保证这一点

coverage be available, and especially preexistingcondition, which Republicans were ready to(141)
共和党人准备好了,特别是先前存在的条件

repeal.(142)
废除。

I think they ought to be raising the minimumwage.(143)
我认为他们应该提高最低工资。

And they -- changing people's lives for thebetter, but guaranteeing that Robert Mueller(144)
他们 - 改善人们的生活,但保证罗伯特穆勒

continues unimpeded in his investigation,and is given the resources and authority necessary(145)
继续不受阻碍地进行调查,并获得必要的资源和权力

to do it.(146)
去做吧。

But David's right.(147)
但大卫是对的。

They can't resist the camera and the lights,and just like us.(148)
他们无法抗拒相机和灯光,就像我们一样。

(LAUGHTER)
AMNA NAWAZ: I want to ask you about some newsyesterday.(149)
AMNA NAWAZ:昨天我想问你一些新闻。

A couple of Supreme Court decisions came down,one in particular that caught a lot of people's(150)
最高法院的一些决定得到了落实,其中一项特别引起了很多人的关注

attention.(151)
注意。

Mark, I will start with you on it.(152)
马克,我将从你开始。

This was the Supreme Court basically blockinga Louisiana law that would have closed a lot(153)
这是最高法院基本上阻止了路易斯安那州的法律,该法律将会关闭很多

of the abortion providers in that state.(154)
在该州的堕胎提供者。

And I mention it in the context of Republicanshaving weathered that whole storm around Brett(155)
我在共和党人的背景下提到它,在布雷特周围经历了整个风暴

Kavanaugh, thinking that he would make thedifference in decisions like this.(156)
卡瓦诺认为他会在这样的决定中发挥作用。

John Roberts in this case was the swing vote.(157)
在这个案例中约翰罗伯茨是摇摆投票。

MARK SHIELDS: John Roberts, yes.(158)
MARK SHIELDS:John Roberts,是的。

AMNA NAWAZ: What do you make of that?(159)
AMNA NAWAZ:你对此有何看法?

MARK SHIELDS: Well, I mean, the chief justicehas been time and again sort of the ballast(160)
MARK SHIELDS:嗯,我的意思是,首席大法官一次又一次地成为镇流器

on the court.(161)
在球场上。

I don't think there's any question -- andwe saw it at the State of the Union address(162)
我认为没有任何问题 - 我们在国情咨文中看到了这一点

as well, Amna -- that the president is goingto make a abortion, and particularly late-term(163)
同样,Amna--总统将要进行堕胎,尤其是晚期堕胎

abortion, an issue in 2020.(164)
堕胎,2020年的一个问题。

He was a convert.(165)
他是个皈依者。

He was Saul on the road to Damascus in 2015and became an ardent pro-life candidate.(166)
他是2015年大马士革之路上的扫罗,并成为一名热心的职业生涯候选人。

He won 80 percent of the vote of white evangelicalsalong the way.(167)
他一路赢得了80%的白人福音派投票。

And, quite bluntly, late-term abortion, 1.3percent of all abortions, is unpopular with(168)
而且,直截了当地说,晚期堕胎,占所有堕胎的1.3%,不受欢迎

Americans.(169)
美国人。

It is not -- it's not unlike immigration.(170)
它不是 - 它与移民没有什么不同。

If you think of immigration as grabbing childrenout of their mother's arms, then everybody(171)
如果你认为移民会把孩子从母亲的怀抱中拽出来,那么每个人都会如此

in the world is on the side of the immigrant.(172)
在世界上是移民的一方。

But if you see it as a caravan marauding towardthe border, then, all of a sudden, there's(173)
但是,如果你把它看作是一个朝着边境劫掠的大篷车,那么,突然之间,就有了

a skepticism about immigration.(174)
对移民的怀疑。

I think the same thing is true, quite frankly,on abortion.(175)
坦率地说,我认为堕胎也是如此。

And the idea of a child full-term being pluckedfrom the womb, and then not being given life,(176)
一个孩子从子宫中被拔出,然后没有得到生命的想法,

I think it's an issue that Donald Trump, quitebluntly, wants to run on in 2020.(177)
我认为这是一个问题,唐纳德特朗普非常坦率地想要在2020年继续运作。

And he can point that he's -- Kavanaugh andGorsuch were on his side, on the side of the(178)
他可以指出他是 - 卡瓦诺和戈萨奇站在他身边,站在他身边

angels, I guess you would call them, in thedecision.(179)
在决定中,天使,我想你会打电话给他们。

AMNA NAWAZ: Well, I -- before we go, we don'thave much time left.(180)
AMNA NAWAZ:嗯,我 - 在我们离开之前,我们没有多少时间了。

So, I want to give both of you an opportunityto weigh in on this.(181)
所以,我想让你们两个都有机会权衡这一点。

But we did lose John Dingell this week.(182)
但本周我们确实失去了约翰丁格尔。

And we don't, as I mentioned, have much time,but I did want to ask if there's anything(183)
而且,正如我所提到的,我们没有多少时间,但我确实想问是否有什么

that you would want to share.(184)
你想要分享。

DAVID BROOKS: My tribute to him is just whata great tweeter he was.(185)
大卫布鲁克斯:我对他的敬意就是他的高音扬声器。

(LAUGHTER)
DAVID BROOKS: He was very funny.(186)
大卫布鲁克斯:他很有趣。

He wrote in one tweet: When you're 90, everything'sa balance beam," or a random thing.(187)
他在一条推文中写道:当你90岁时,一切都是平衡木,“或随机的东西。

"For what it's worth, I would watch a gorillachannel," which is a very good observation."(188)
“为了它的价值,我会看一个大猩猩频道,”这是一个非常好的观察。

(LAUGHTER)
DAVID BROOKS: So I like the way an older guycould adapt to a new medium.(189)
大卫布鲁克斯:所以我喜欢老家伙适应新媒体的方式。

AMNA NAWAZ: Was impressive, indeed.(190)
AMNA NAWAZ:确实令人印象深刻。

What about you?(191)
你呢?

MARK SHIELDS: He was a giant.(192)
MARK SHIELDS:他是一个巨人。

I mean, he truly was.(193)
我的意思是,他确实是。

They asked once what the jurisdiction of hiscommittee was, the way he held hearings and(194)
他们曾经问过他的委员会的管辖权,他举行听证会的方式

brought to heel captains of industry and malefactorsin every possible activity.(195)
在每一种可能的活动中都将工业和犯罪分子带到了脚跟上。

And he said, "Planet Earth is my jurisdiction."(196)
他说,“地球是我的管辖范围。”

But he said the proudest moment he had wasvoting for the 1964 Civil Rights Act.(197)
但他说,他最骄傲的时刻是投票支持1964年的民权法案。

And he was -- he was just a remarkable -- ourair is cleaner, our lives are richer and better,(198)
他是 - 他只是一个了不起 - 我们的空气更清洁,我们的生活更丰富,更好,

our country is healthier because of John Dingell.(199)
由于John Dingell,我们的国家更健康。

AMNA NAWAZ: We are indebted, indeed.(200)
AMNA NAWAZ:我们感激不尽。

Mark Shields and David Brooks, thanks so much.(201)
Mark Shields和David Brooks,非常感谢。

Always good to talk to you.(202)
总是很高兴跟你说话。


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