A look back at presidential impeachment in U.S. history
2019-11-28 00:00:00


AMNA NAWAZ: Impeachment is a rare event.(1)
AMNA NAWAZ:弹each是罕见的事件。

And, as the nation has watched the last weeksof public hearings, we have naturally wondered(2)
而且,随着国家观看了最后几周的公开听证会,我们自然而然地想知道

how this time in history compares to the others.(3)
历史上这段时间与其他时间相比如何

To answer that question, I spoke with threehistorians last week.(4)
为了回答这个问题,我上周与三位历史学家进行了交谈。

Each focused on a former president who hadto deal with the threat of impeachment.(5)
每个人都集中于必须应对弹each威胁的前总统。

To tell us about Bill Clinton's impeachment,Peter Baker joins us.(6)
为了向我们介绍比尔·克林顿的弹each,彼得·贝克加入了我们。

He is chief White House correspondent at TheNew York Times and co-author of "Impeachment:(7)
他是《纽约时报》的白宫首席通讯员,也是《弹::

An American History."(8)
美国历史。”

On Richard Nixon, Timothy Naftali joins us.(9)
在理查德·尼克松(Richard Nixon)上,蒂莫西·纳夫塔利(Timothy Naftali)加入了我们。

He is a professor at New York University andformer director of the Richard Nixon Presidential(10)
他是纽约大学的教授,曾任理查德·尼克松总统的董事

Library.(11)
图书馆。

And he also co-authored "Impeachment: An AmericanHistory."(12)
他还与人合着了《弹mp:美国历史》。

And for Andrew Johnson, Brenda Wineapple joinsus.(13)
对于安德鲁·约翰逊(Andrew Johnson),Brenda Wineapple也加入了我们。

She is the author of "The Impeachers: TheTrial of Andrew Johnson and the Dream of a(14)
她是《弹Imp:安德鲁·约翰逊的审判与梦想的作者》一书的作者。

Just Nation."(15)
正义国家。”

Thank you, all of you, for being here.(16)
谢谢大家在这里。

And, Peter, I will start with you.(17)
而且,彼得,我将从你开始。

I want to go kind of backwards in time here.(18)
我想在这里退后一点。

If you had to give sort of a 90-second historylesson on what the story of Bill Clinton's(19)
如果您不得不讲一段90秒的历史课,以了解比尔·克林顿的故事

impeachment was about, how would do you that?(20)
弹was即将发生,你会怎么做?

PETER BAKER, White House Correspondent, TheNew York Times: Well, it's hard to do in 90(21)
彼得·贝克(PETER BAKER),白宫记者,《纽约时报》:好吧,这在90年代很难做到

seconds, but we will give it a try.(22)
秒,但我们会尝试一下。

(LAUGHTER)
PETER BAKER: Look, President Clinton got caughtup in a sex scandal.(23)
彼得·贝克:你看,克林顿总统陷入了性丑闻。

He was being accuse of sexual harassment ina lawsuit.(24)
他在一次诉讼中被指控性骚扰。

And as part of that lawsuit, he was askedto testify about his relationship with other(25)
作为该诉讼的一部分,他被要求证明自己与其他人的关系

women.(26)
女人。

He lied about a relationship with a formerintern named Monica Lewinsky.(27)
他对与前实习生莫妮卡·莱温斯基(Monica Lewinsky)的关系撒谎。

BILL CLINTON, Former President of the UnitedStates: I didn't have sexual relations with(28)
美国前总统比尔·克林顿:我与

that woman, Ms. Lewinsky.(29)
那个女人莱温斯基女士。

PETER BAKER: And the House ultimately impeachedhim along party lines for perjury and obstruction(30)
彼得·贝克(PETER BAKER):众议院最终根据政党路线对他进行弹each,以作伪证和阻碍

of justice.(31)
正义。

MAN: I hereby deliver these articles of impeachment.(32)
男:我谨在此提供这些弹articles条款。

PETER BAKER: It went to the Senate for trial,but he ended up getting acquitted on a pretty(33)
彼得·贝克(PETER BAKER):经过参议院的审判,但最终他被无罪释放

strong vote.(34)
强烈投票。

The prosecutors didn't get more than 50 votes,even though they needed 67 to convict him.(35)
检察官的票数没有超过50票,即使他们需要67票才能定罪。

WILLIAM REHNQUIST, Former U.S. Supreme CourtChief Justice: It is, therefore, ordered and(36)
前美国最高法院首席大法官威廉·伦奎斯特(WILLIAM REHNQUIST):

adjudged that the said William Jefferson Clintonbe and he is hereby is acquitted of the charges(37)
裁定威廉·杰斐逊·克林顿为他,并在此特此宣布无罪

in the said articles.(38)
在上述文章中。

PETER BAKER: That was the crux of it.(39)
彼得·贝克:那是关键所在。

But, really, at the heart, of course, areall kinds of interesting questions about accountability,(40)
但是,实际上,对于问责制,实际上,实际上是各种各样有趣的问题,

balance of power, separation of powers, what'simportant in terms of impeachment, what constitutes(41)
权力平衡,权力分立,弹imp方面的重要内容,什么构成

a high crime, misdemeanor, and these are theissues we see today as well.(42)
高犯罪率,轻罪,这也是我们今天看到的问题。

BILL CLINTON: I want to say again to the Americanpeople how profoundly sorry I am.(43)
比尔·克林顿:我想对美国人民再说一遍。

AMNA NAWAZ: Tim Naftali, what about you?(44)
AMNA NAWAZ:Tim Naftali,你呢?

Tell us the story of Richard Nixon's impeachment.(45)
告诉我们理查德·尼克松被弹each的故事。

And what was at stake there?(46)
那里有什么危险?

TIMOTHY NAFTALI, Former Director, Nixon PresidentialLibrary: Well, Richard Nixon gets caught up(47)
尼克松总统图书馆前馆长蒂莫西·纳夫塔利(TIMOTHY NAFTALI):好吧,理查德·尼克松被赶上了

in a -- an espionage and break-in story.(48)
在一个间谍和闯入故事中。

In the summer of 1972, a group of burglarsare caught breaking into the Democratic National(49)
1972年夏天,一群盗贼被抓进了民主党

Committee's headquarters in the Watergate.(50)
委员会总部设在水门。

This leads to some excellent journalism, largelyby Woodward and Bernstein.(51)
这导致了一些优秀的新闻业,主要是伍德沃德和伯恩斯坦。

And after the 1972 election, a special SenateWatergate Committee looks into two issues(52)
1972年大选后,参议院水门特别委员会调查了两个问题

and questions of misconduct in the campaign.(53)
以及竞选中的不当行为问题。

That leads to very celebrated public hearings.(54)
这导致了非常著名的公开听证会。

ROBERT MACNEIL, "NewsHour" Co-Founder: Goodevening from Washington.(55)
ROBERT MACNEIL,“ NewsHour”联合创始人:晚上好,来自华盛顿。

In a few moments, we're going to bring youthe entire proceedings in the first day of(56)
稍后,我们将在第一天为您介绍整个程序

the Senate Watergate hearings.(57)
参议院水门法庭听证会。

MAN: The committee will come to order.(58)
曼:委员会将下达命令。

TIMOTHY NAFTALI: No one's talking about impeachmentat that point.(59)
蒂莫西·纳夫塔利(TIMOTHY NAFTALI):在这一点上,没有人谈论弹imp。

SEN.(60)
SEN。

SAM ERVIN (D-NC): We are beginning these hearingstoday in an atmosphere of utmost gravity.(61)
萨姆·埃文(D-NC):今天,我们在最大的重力气氛下开始听证会。

TIMOTHY NAFTALI: But public hearings thatbring out the possibility that the president(62)
蒂莫西·纳夫塔利(TIMOTHY NAFTALI):但是公开听证会显示出总统的可能性

himself was involved in a cover-up and thefact that the president is taping his conversations(63)
他本人也参与了掩盖行动,而总统正在窃听他的谈话

in the White House.(64)
在白宫。

ALEXANDER BUTTERFIELD, Former White HouseAide: I was aware of listening devices, yes,(65)
白宫前助手亚历山大·巴特菲尔德:我知道监听设备,是的,

sir.(66)
先生。

TIMOTHY NAFTALI: There might not have beenan impeachment inquiry at all, but the president(67)
蒂莫西·纳夫塔利(TIMOTHY NAFTALI):可能根本没有进行弹each调查,但是总统

is very nervous, because, in addition to theSenate looking into him, there is a special(68)
非常紧张,因为除了参议院调查他外,还有一个特别的

prosecutor that's looking into him.(69)
检察官正在调查他。

And that special prosecutor wants access tothose tapes.(70)
那个特别检察官想访问那些磁带。

The president doesn't want those tapes togo to the special prosecutor.(71)
总统不希望这些录音带交给特别检察官。

He fights it.(72)
他打架。

And when he doesn't get what he wants, andis on the verge of losing in court, he fires(73)
当他没有得到自己想要的东西,并且濒临法庭失败时,他开除了

the special prosecutor.(74)
特别检察官。

And not only does he fire Archibald Cox, buthe tries to put the entire independent investigation(75)
他不仅解雇了阿奇博尔德·考克斯,而且还尝试进行整个独立调查

out of business.(76)
倒闭

That sends a shockwave through the countryafter something called the Saturday Night(77)
在周六夜之后,这件事在全国范围内引起了冲击。

Massacre.(78)
屠杀。

And it is then the not just Democrats, whocontrol both houses, by the way, in Congress(79)
顺便说一下,不仅是民主党人,而且还在国会控制着两院

at that time, but Republicans too, join andsay, we need to investigate.(80)
当时,但共和党人也加入并说,我们需要调查。

From that point in late '73, until Augustof '74, the House is engaged in an impeachment(81)
从73年后期到74年8月,众议院开始进行弹imp

inquiry.(82)
查询。

Ultimately, the House votes three articlesof impeachment.(83)
最终,众议院投票赞成三项弹votes。

All three have bipartisan support.(84)
这三个国家都有两党支持。

Before those articles of impeachment can bevoted on by the entire House, Richard Nixon,(85)
理查德·尼克松(Richard Nixon)在众议院对这些弹imp条款进行表决之前,

who understands his support is crumbling,Richard Nixon resigns.(86)
理查德·尼克松(Richard Nixon)辞职后得知自己的支持正在崩溃。

RICHARD NIXON, Former President of the UnitedStates: I shall resign the presidency effective(87)
美国前总统里查德·尼克松:我将辞去总统职务,

at noon tomorrow.(88)
明天中午。

TIMOTHY NAFTALI: Richard Nixon's case involvedobstruction of justice and abuse of power.(89)
蒂莫西·纳夫塔利(TIMOTHY NAFTALI):理查德·尼克松(Richard Nixon)的案件涉及妨碍司法公正和滥用权力。

And it's that abuse of power element of theWatergate story that seems so relevant in(90)
而水门事件中权力元素的滥用似乎在

the current discussion of Water -- of impeachment.(91)
当前关于水的讨论-弹imp。

AMNA NAWAZ: And we're going to dig throughsome of those issues you raised there in a(92)
AMNA NAWAZ:我们将探讨您在其中提出的一些问题。

bit more detail.(93)
更多细节。

But, Brenda Wineapple, over to you.(94)
但是,布伦达(Brenda Wineapple),交给您。

Tell us the story of Andrew Johnson and hisimpeachment proceedings.(95)
告诉我们安德鲁·约翰逊(Andrew Johnson)及其弹story程序的故事。

BRENDA WINEAPPLE, Author, "The Impeachers:The Trial of Andrew Johnson and the Dream(96)
BRENDA WINEAPPLE,作者,“弹Imp:安德鲁·约翰逊与梦想的审判

of a Just Nation": Johnson was impeached justthree years after the Civil War.(97)
正义国家之战”:内战后仅三年,约翰逊就遭到弹each。

And when you think about what was going onthere, and that the country was in need, desperate(98)
当您考虑那里发生的事情,以及那个国家的需要时,绝望

need, of putting itself back together again,you had a chief executive who assigned himself(99)
需要让自己重新团结起来,您有一位首席执行官任命了自己

the role of not so much peacemaker, but aperson who restored the South or wanted to(100)
扮演的角色不是和平主义者,而是恢复南方或想要

restore the South to its former supremacy,which was white supremacy.(101)
将南方恢复到以前的至高无上的地位,即白人至上。

And it wasn't a question of treason or bribery.(102)
这不是叛国或贿赂的问题。

But when Andrew Johnson actually broke a lawthat Congress had passed in order to rein(103)
但是当安德鲁·约翰逊(Andrew Johnson)实际违反国会通过的法律以制止

him in, so that Johnson would execute thelaws of Congress, which really restored civil(104)
他加入,以便约翰逊执行国会法律,从而真正恢复了公民权

rights and finally voting rights to blackmen in the South to give them representation(105)
南方黑人的选举权和最终投票权,以赋予他们代表性

in the country, when Johnson broke that law,the House had no choice, it felt, and voted(106)
在美国,当约翰逊(Johnson)违反该法律时,众议院别无选择,并投票

overwhelmingly to impeach Andrew Johnson.(107)
压倒性地弹Andrew安德鲁·约翰逊。

So, technically, he was impeached becausehe stepped on a statute, because he violated(108)
因此,从技术上讲,他因踩踏法规而受到弹a,因为他违反了

a law, he broke the law, but it had been along time coming.(109)
一部法律,他触犯了法律,但这已经很长时间了。

And for many, many people in the country andcertainly in Congress among the Republicans(110)
对于美国的许多人,当然还有共和党中的国会议员,

felt that he'd been abusing power, denyingthe legitimacy of Congress and obstructing(111)
感到他一直在滥用权力,否认国会的合法性并阻碍

justice and the law for much, much too long.(112)
正义和法律的时间太长了。

And he was really squandering, they felt,the victory, the Union victory, which had(113)
他们感到,他真的在挥霍,胜利是联盟的胜利,

abolished slavery, but not its effect.(114)
废除了奴隶制,但没有废除奴隶制。

AMNA NAWAZ: Central to these narratives is,of course, how each of these presidents reacted(115)
AMNA NAWAZ:当然,这些叙述的核心是每个总统的反应

in the time, in the moment to the impeachmentproceedings.(116)
在当时,到了弹proceedings程序的那一刻。

Peter, I will come back to you here.(117)
彼得,我会回到这里。

What do we know?(118)
我们知道什么?

And how would you characterize the Clintonreaction to the impeachment proceedings?(119)
您如何评价克林顿对弹proceedings程序的反应?

PETER BAKER: Well, Clinton took the approachof being above it all.(120)
彼得·贝克(PETER BAKER):嗯,克林顿采取了超越一切的办法。

That's the image he wanted to project to thecountry.(121)
那就是他想投射到这个国家的形象。

He was focused on the people's business.(122)
他专注于人民事务。

He wasn't going to get down in the dirt withall these other people who are obsessed with(123)
他不会和所有其他痴迷于此的人陷入泥潭

scandal.(124)
丑闻。

And he tried to, therefore, basically shoveit off to the side, in effect.(125)
因此,他实际上试图将其推到一边。

He wasn't going to dignify it, if you will,with being too obsessed by it in public.(126)
如果您愿意的话,他不会因为在公共场合过于痴迷而端庄。

Behind the scenes, of course, he was obsessedby it.(127)
当然,在幕后,他被它迷住了。

He was consumed by it.(128)
他被它淹没了。

He was filled with rage and grievance andanger and unhappiness and resentment.(129)
他充满了愤怒,委屈,愤怒,不满与怨恨。

He was so absorbed by it, that people wouldleave meetings with him and say it wasn't(130)
他对它非常着迷,以至于人们离开与他会面并说不是

-- it was like he wasn't even there.(131)
-好像他甚至不在那儿。

One of his aides during a trip to the MiddleEast when he in -- I think in Gaza trying(132)
他在中东旅行期间的助手之一-我认为在加沙

to negotiate Middle East peace between thePalestinians and the Israelis noticed -- over(133)
在巴勒斯坦人和以色列人之间进行中东和平谈判时注意到-

his shoulder, they noticed the president writingon his notepad: "Focus on your job.(134)
在他的肩膀上,他们注意到总统在记事本上写道:“专注于您的工作。

Focus on your job."(135)
专心工作。”

He was trying very hard to project this ideaof a president who was unaffected.(136)
他非常努力地想出这个总统不受影响的想法。

But, in fact, he was, as any person, I suppose,would be quite consumed by it in private.(137)
但是,实际上,正如我想的那样,他被任何人私下所吞没。

Now, the difference between him and the othertwo presidents is, he was very popular at(138)
现在,他和其他两位总统之间的区别是,他在

the time.(139)
时间。

So he had a wellspring of public support.(140)
因此,他获得了公众支持的源泉。

His numbers were above 60 percent approvalrating throughout the entire investigation(141)
在整个调查过程中,他的数字均超过60%的支持率

by Ken Starr and the House impeachment andSenate trial.(142)
由肯斯塔尔和众议院进行弹each和参议院审判。

In fact, it went up, not down, the day afterthe impeachment vote in the House.(143)
实际上,在众议院进行弹each投票的第二天,它上升了,而不是下降了。

It went up to 73 percent.(144)
它上升了73%。

So he had that sort of basic political baseto work from that other presidents didn't(145)
所以他有其他总统没有的那种基本的政治基础

have.(146)
有。

But behind the scenes, of course, it was anall-consuming thing for him.(147)
但是,在幕后,对他来说,这当然是一件费力的事情。

AMNA NAWAZ: Brenda, what about you?(148)
AMNA NAWAZ:布伦达,你呢?

What do we know?(149)
我们知道什么?

Obviously, we didn't have tweets in real timereacting to what was going on in any of the(150)
显然,我们没有实时对任何

proceedings.(151)
诉讼。

(LAUGHTER)
AMNA NAWAZ: But what do we know about theway that Andrew Johnson was reacting to those(152)
AMNA NAWAZ:但是我们对安德鲁·约翰逊对那些事情的反应方式有什么了解

proceedings?(153)
诉讼?

BRENDA WINEAPPLE: If Andrew Johnson couldhave tweeted, he would have been tweeting,(154)
布兰达·WINEAPPLE:如果安德鲁·约翰逊(Andrew Johnson)可以发推文,那么他会发推文,

believe me.(155)
相信我。

He really -- he was aggrieved too, just likePeter was saying Clinton was.(156)
他真的-他也感到委屈,就像彼得在说克林顿那样。

And he wanted to take his case to the people.(157)
他想把案子交给人民。

He understood what impeachment was, but itwas almost as if he didn't, and he thought(158)
他了解弹imp是什么,但几乎好像没有弹imp,他想

that, if could go on a series of rallies andget people behind him, that somehow none of(159)
如果可以进行一系列的集会并把人们带到他身后,那

this would be happening.(160)
这将会发生。

And his lawyers very deftly and very carefullywarned him to stay in the White House, which(161)
他的律师非常机智和非常谨慎地警告他留在白宫,

they made him do.(162)
他们让他做。

He wanted to testify on his own behalf.(163)
他想代表自己作证。

But they were really afraid.(164)
但是他们真的很害怕。

He was a very pugnacious person, and theywere very afraid of what he might say, what(165)
他是一个非常好斗的人,他们非常害怕他会说什么,

he might do, and that he could further alienatedpeople who may have been wobbling.(166)
他可能会这样做,并且他可能会进一步疏远那些可能一直在颤抖的人。

And there were a couple of who really were.(167)
确实有几个人。

AMNA NAWAZ: And, Tim, I found it so interesting.(168)
AMNA NAWAZ:而且,Tim,我觉得它很有趣。

You told my colleague earlier that, in themoment, Richard Nixon actually withdrew.(169)
您之前告诉我的同事,此刻,理查德·尼克松实际上退出了。

He wasn't out there publicly advocating forhimself.(170)
他没有在那里公开为自己辩护。

But I'm curious about how the rest of hisparty reacted.(171)
但是我对他的其他党派的反应感到好奇。

It's so interesting we see now Republicansin the House really standing by President(172)
如此有趣,我们现在看到众议院的共和党人真的站在总统身边

Trump, staunchly defending him.(173)
特朗普,坚定地捍卫他。

Was that true of President Nixon and his partyat the time?(174)
当时尼克松总统和他的政党是真的吗?

TIMOTHY NAFTALI: In 1974, the public had noidea that the leadership of the Republican(175)
蒂莫西·纳夫塔利(TIMOTHY NAFTALI):1974年,公众不知道共和党的领导

Party was hoping that Richard Nixon wouldresign.(176)
党希望理查德·尼克松辞职。

When he didn't resign, those leaders feltthey had no choice but to stand behind him.(177)
当他不辞职时,那些领导人觉得他们别无选择,只能站在他身后。

They discovered that there was a lot of supportfor Richard Nixon outside of Washington.(178)
他们发现在华盛顿以外,对理查德·尼克松的支持很大。

And so they decided they had no better alternativethan to stand by him.(179)
因此,他们决定除了站在他身边,别无选择。

What happens in this story is that rank-and-fileRepublicans, the Republicans on the House(180)
这个故事发生的是普通的共和党人,众议院的共和党人

Judiciary Committee, as they absorbed thedata that's amassed for them, they come to(181)
司法委员会,因为他们吸收了为他们收集的数据,他们来到了

the conclusion that Richard Nixon stayingin power would be a threat to the Constitution.(182)
理查德·尼克松执政将对宪法构成威胁。

And they decided, against their politicaljudgment -- their political fortunes, and(183)
他们决定反对他们的政治判断-他们的政治命运,以及

against the recommendations of the leadersof the Republican Party, to vote against the(184)
反对共和党领导人的建议,投票反对

president.(185)
主席。

So there's -- there are two different storiesthere.(186)
因此,这里有两个不同的故事。

There's a story of the Republican leadershipin 1974, which ultimately stands behind Nixon,(187)
1974年共和党领导层的故事最终站到了尼克松的背后,

and there's the story of the Republicans onthe House Judiciary Committee, many of whom(188)
众议院司法委员会上有共和党的故事,其中许多人

thought they had no alternative but to dotheir constitutional duty and vote for impeachment.(189)
认为他们别无选择,只能履行宪法义务并投票弹imp。

AMNA NAWAZ: Brenda Wineapple, I will giveyou the last word here.(190)
AMNA NAWAZ:Brenda Wineapple,我在这里给您最后的话。

Of course, a lot of people are studying thesemoments in history to see if there are lessons(191)
当然,很多人正在研究历史上的这些时刻,看看是否有教训

to be learned.(192)
有待学习。

What do you see in the way of echoes of pastimpeachment proceedings or parallels between(193)
您如何看待过去的弹each程序或两者之间的相似之处?

those proceedings in the past and the onewe're seeing today?(194)
过去的程序和我们今天看到的程序?

BRENDA WINEAPPLE: Well, one interesting parallelis the fact that there was an election coming.(195)
布伦达·WINEAPPLE:嗯,一个有趣的相似之处是即将举行大选。

Johnson was impeached in February of 1868.(196)
约翰逊于1868年2月被弹imp。

The trial started very soon after that.(197)
此后不久开始审判。

And, by May, you have the Republican NationalConvention starting to nominate a candidate.(198)
而且,到5月,您将有共和党全国代表大会开始提名候选人。

So that was a consideration, a very importantconsideration, determining how some of the(199)
因此,这是一个考虑因素,是非常重要的考虑因素,它决定了

members of Congress voted.(200)
国会议员投票通过。

And as you probably know, Johnson was acquittedby only one vote.(201)
如您所知,约翰逊仅以一票获得无罪。

So there are a lot of politics that come intoplay, in addition to the constitutional issues.(202)
因此,除了宪法问题外,还有很多政治因素在起作用。

The interesting thing, finally, though, isthat Johnson was impeached.(203)
最后,有趣的是,约翰逊遭到弹each。

He wasn't removed.(204)
他没有被遣散。

He wasn't convicted, but he goes down in historyas one of the few presidents, one of the two,(205)
他没有被定罪,但他作为少数几位总统之一,两位总统之一,

one of the only two, to be impeached.(206)
被弹two的仅有的两个之一。

And that's a stain that will stay on his recordforever.(207)
那将永远留在他的记录上。

AMNA NAWAZ: Just a brief look at three importantmoments in our American history.(208)
AMNA NAWAZ:简要介绍一下美国历史上的三个重要时刻。

Brenda Wineapple, Timothy Naftali, and PeterBaker, thank you so much for being with us.(209)
Brenda Wineapple,Timothy Naftali和Peter Baker,非常感谢您与我们在一起。

BRENDA WINEAPPLE: Thank you.(210)
布伦达·WINEAPPLE:谢谢。


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