The ruthless rise of North Korea's Kim Jong Un
2019-06-11 00:00:00


JUDY WOODRUFF: Ever since the February summitin Vietnam between President Trump and North(1)
JUDY WOODRUFF:自2月在特朗普总统与北方之间的越南峰会以来

Korea's leader, Kim Jong-un, U.S. officialssay the two sides have not been talking.(2)
韩国领导人金正恩(Kim Jong-un)表示,双方尚未谈及此事。

But, today, President Trump revealed he receiveda letter from Kim.(3)
但是,今天,特朗普总统透露他收到了金的一封信。

And Mr. Trump also extended an olive branchto Kim, a promise not to spy on him, using(4)
特朗普先生还向金正日伸出了橄榄枝,承诺不会窥探他

his family.(5)
他的家庭。

That news was revealed in a new book out today.(6)
这个消息在今天出版的新书中透露出来。

And Nick Schifrin has that story.(7)
Nick Schifrin有这个故事。

NICK SCHIFRIN: Kim Jong-un has gone from privilegedson of a dictator, to mostly anonymous student(8)
NICK SCHIFRIN:Kim Jong-un已经从独裁者的特权儿子变成了大多数匿名学生

in Switzerland, to commander of a militarywith a thermonuclear bomb, to scribe of what(9)
在瑞士,一个拥有热核炸弹的军队指挥官,为什么做抄写

President Trump calls beautiful letters tothe White House.(10)
特朗普总统给白宫打了一封精美的信件。

He is only 35, and leads one of the most opaquecountries on the planet.(11)
他只有35岁,并领导着这个星球上最不透明的国家之一。

Perhaps that's why the CIA recruited his half-brother.(12)
也许这就是中央情报局招募他的同父异母兄弟的原因。

The book out today reveals that news and triesto makes clear Kim's history and motivations,(13)
今天出版的这本书揭示了新闻并试图弄清楚金的历史和动机,

and also reveals what life is really likeinside Korea.(14)
并揭示了韩国境内的生活真实情况。

It is called "The Great Successor: The DivinelyPerfect Destiny of Brilliant Comrade Kim Jong(15)
它被称为“伟大的接班人:金正同志的神圣完美命运”

Un."(16)
联合国。”

The honor -- the author is Anna Fifield, TheWashington Post's Beijing bureau chief.(17)
荣誉 - 作者是华盛顿邮报北京局局长Anna Fifield。

And it's a pleasure to have you.(18)
拥有你很高兴。

Thanks so much for coming on the "NewsHour."(19)
非常感谢您加入“NewsHour”。

ANNA FIFIELD, Author, "The Great Successor:The Divinely Perfect Destiny of Brilliant(20)
ANNA FIFIELD,作者,“伟大的接班人:辉煌的神圣完美命运

Comrade Kim Jong Un": It's great to be here.(21)
金正恩同志“:很高兴来到这里。

Thank you.(22)
谢谢。

NICK SCHIFRIN: Let us start with the newstoday.(23)
尼克·施菲林:让我们从今天的新闻开始吧。

Kim Jong-nam, Kim Jong-un's half-brother,was providing information to the CIA.(24)
Kim Jong-nam,Kim Jong-un的同父异母兄弟,正在向中央情报局提供信息。

That is something that you first revealed.(25)
这是你第一次透露的东西。

President Trump was asked about that today.(26)
特朗普总统今天被问及此事。

He was also asked about a letter that he'sreceived from Kim Jong-un.(27)
他还被问及他从金正恩那里收到的一封信。

So let's take a listen to that.(28)
让我们来听听。

DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States:I just received a beautiful letter from Kim(29)
DONALD TRUMP,美国总统:我刚收到金的一封精美的信

Jong-un, and I think the relationship is verywell, but I appreciated the letter.(30)
Jong-un,我觉得关系非常好,但我很欣赏这封信。

I saw the information about the CIA with respectto his brother, or half-brother, and I would(31)
我看到了有关他的兄弟或同父异母的中央情报局的信息,我愿意

tell him that wouldn't happen under my -- undermy auspices.(32)
告诉他,在我的支持下不会发生这种情况。

That's for sure.(33)
这是肯定的。

NICK SCHIFRIN: President Trump saying he wouldn'trecruit a member of Kim's family for spying.(34)
尼克·施菲林:特朗普总统说他不会招募金氏家族成员进行间谍活动。

Remind us, who was Kim Jong-nam, what didhe provide to the CIA, if we know?(35)
如果我们知道的话,提醒我们,金正男是谁,他向中央情报局提供了什么?

And also remind us how he died so publicly.(36)
并且还提醒我们他是如何公开死亡的。

ANNA FIFIELD: Right.(37)
ANNA FIFIELD:对。

So, Kim Jong-nam was the firstborn son ofthe North Korean leader Kim Jong Il.(38)
因此,金正男是朝鲜领导人金正日的长子。

So, according to the Confucian hierarchy ofKorea, he should have been the successor,(39)
所以,根据韩国的儒家等级,他应该是继承者,

the firstborn son.(40)
长子。

He wasn't.(41)
他没有。

He apparently fell out of favor, and he puthimself into a kind of quasi-exile after 2001,(42)
他显然已经失宠了,他在2001年后陷入了一种准流亡状态,

until his younger brother, Kim Jong-un, becamethe leader of North Korea at the end of 2011.(43)
直到他的弟弟金正恩于2011年底成为朝鲜领导人。

And then he seems to have really fallen outof favor.(44)
然后他似乎真的失宠了。

He started to publicly criticize his brotherin quite oblique terms, but, still, this leader(45)
他开始以相当倾斜的方式公开批评他的兄弟,但仍然是这位领导人

brooks no criticism.(46)
不容批评。

And even that was too much.(47)
甚至那太过分了。

And what I discovered in the course of reportingthis book was that he had become an informant(48)
我在报告这本书的过程中发现,他已成为一名线人

for the CIA, and that he was supplying informationabout the regime to American intelligence(49)
对于中央情报局而言,他正在向美国情报部门提供有关该政权的信息

services.(50)
服务。

He would meet them in various locations inSoutheast Asia.(51)
他将在东南亚的不同地点与他们见面。

And, in fact, on the day he died, when hewas killed in Kuala Lumpur Airport with a(52)
事实上,在他去世的那一天,当他在吉隆坡机场被杀时

chemical weapon here, he had $120,000 in cashin his backpack.(53)
这里有化学武器,他背包里有12万美元现金。

NICK SCHIFRIN: He was killed by foreigners.(54)
尼克·施菲林:他被外国人杀死了。

That was the first time the North Korean regimehad done that and done an assassination like(55)
这是朝鲜政权第一次这样做,并做了像暗杀一样的暗杀

this so brazenly.(56)
这如此肆无忌惮。

"The Great Successor" is called that, of course,because you mention Kim Jong-un's father,(57)
当然,“伟大的接班人”被称为金正恩的父亲,

which he -- whom he succeeded.(58)
他是谁 - 他成功了。

And you talk about how the succession wasrisky, and this crackdown on any dissent,(59)
你谈论继承是如何风险的,以及对任何异议的镇压,

even members of his family, was part of KimJong-un's power from the very beginning.(60)
即使是他的家人,也是金正恩从一开始就拥有权力的一部分。

And you call him the most Machiavellian leaderof our time.(61)
你称他为我们这个时代最多的马基雅维利领袖。

ANNA FIFIELD: Right.(62)
ANNA FIFIELD:对。

So Kim Jong-un was only 27 years old whenhe became the leader of North Korea.(63)
因此金正恩在成为朝鲜领导人时只有27岁。

And this family has kept a hold on this countryfor 70 years by propagating this myth that(64)
通过传播这个神话,这个家族已经在这个国家保持了70年

they are some kind of quasi-deities who havethis divine right to rule.(65)
他们是某种具有神圣统治权的准神。

So he very much gains his legitimacy fromthis family line, from being the scion of(66)
所以他从这个家族中获得了他的合法性,从而成为他的后裔

this family.(67)
这个家庭。

So, he was staking his claim to the leadership,and he wanted to get rid of any detractors,(68)
所以,他正在坚持自己对领导的要求,他想要摆脱任何批评者,

anybody who might rival his claim to be theleader of the North Korean regime.(69)
任何可能与他的主张相媲美的人都是朝鲜政权的领导人。

And his brother, who had the same divine bloodpumping through his veins, was clearly a rival.(70)
而他的兄弟,他的血管中有相同的神圣血液,显然是一个竞争对手。

He dispatched with him.(71)
他和他一起出去了。

But Kim Jong-un also got rid of his unclequite early on, in the second year of his(72)
但金正恩在他的第二年也很早就摆脱了他的叔叔

regime.(73)
政权。

The uncle was accused of having too much poweror trying to amass power.(74)
叔叔被指控拥有太多权力或试图积聚权力。

So Kim Jong-un was very kind of shrewd andruthless in how he got rid of anybody who(75)
因此,金正恩在如何摆脱任何人身上都非常精明和无情

could pose a threat to him and his hold onpower.(76)
可能对他构成威胁和对权力的控制。

NICK SCHIFRIN: And yet you write how he tookpower, unlike his father and his grandfather(77)
NICK SCHIFRIN:然而你写的是他掌权的方式,不像他的父亲和他的祖父

before him, at a young age.(78)
在他面前,年纪轻轻。

Kim Jong-un was so young, and, therefore,he had to do more than survive.(79)
金正恩如此年轻,因此,他必须做的不仅仅是生存。

He had to give -- as you put it, give hisown people a sense of a better life.(80)
他必须给予 - 正如你所说的那样,给自己的人一种更好的生活感。

And that, in part, led to economic changesand an opening up that we haven't seen before,(81)
而这部分导致了经济变革和我们以前从未见过的开放,

right?(82)
对?

ANNA FIFIELD: Very early on, in 2013, he said,North Koreans will never have to tighten their(83)
安娜·费尔内尔:他说,很早就在2013年,朝鲜人永远不会收紧他们的

belts again.(84)
皮带再次。

So, first of all, he tended to the nuclearprogram.(85)
所以,首先,他倾向于核计划。

Now that that's all done and he has a crediblenuclear threat, he's really turning all of(86)
既然这一切都已经完成并且他有可靠的核威胁,那他就真的全力以赴

his attention to the economy as a way to provethat life is getting better under him.(87)
他对经济的关注是一种证明生活在他身下变得更好的方式。

So he is tolerating markets on a much greaterbasis than ever before, and there is a real(88)
因此,他比以往任何时候都更加容忍市场,并且有一个真实的

kind of nascent entrepreneurialism in NorthKorea, where individual people are able to(89)
在朝鲜这种新生的企业家精神,个人能够做到这一点

go out and to trade and make money for themselvesand to be more independent of the state.(90)
出去交易,为自己赚钱,更加独立于国家。

That is changing, and it's moving in thatdirection.(91)
这种情况正在改变,而且正朝着这个方向发展。

And this has given people more freedom fromthe state and more ability to make their own(92)
这给了人们更多的国家自由和更多的自我创造能力

living.(93)
活的。

NICK SCHIFRIN: And Kim Jong-un himself, talkabout how secluded his childhood was.(94)
NICK SCHIFRIN:金正恩本人,谈论他的童年是多么隐蔽。

And one of your interesting sources, talkabout the Japanese chef, Kenji Fujimoto.(95)
还有一个有趣的消息来源,谈论日本厨师Kenji Fujimoto。

ANNA FIFIELD: So, Kim Jong-un, when he wasgrowing up, didn't have anybody else to play(96)
ANNA FIFIELD:所以,Kim Jong-un,在他长大的时候,没有其他人可以玩

with.(97)
用。

So when this Japanese sushi chef arrived tomake sushi for the royal household, Kim Jong-un(98)
因此,当这位日本寿司厨师到达为皇室成员制作寿司时,Kim Jong-un

seems to have kind of taken a shine to him,as somebody interesting and eccentric and(99)
似乎有点像他一样闪耀,就像有人有趣和古怪

spent a lot of time with him.(100)
花了很多时间和他在一起。

They flew kites together.(101)
他们一起放风筝。

He went out fishing with Fujimoto.(102)
他和藤本一起去钓鱼。

And Fujimoto told me, when I met him in Japan,that he would catch fish from the boat, and(103)
藤本告诉我,当我在日本遇见他时,他会从船上捕鱼,并且

then Kim Jong-un would come along and takethe fishing pole off him and brag about, "I(104)
然后,金正恩会走过来把钓鱼竿从他身上拿下来吹嘘说:“我

caught a fish, I caught a fish," and, like,take the credit for this.(105)
抓了一条鱼,我抓到了一条鱼,“而且,就像这样。

So, he was somebody who was used to beingdoted upon and having his own way from a very(106)
所以,他曾经是一个习惯于被溺爱并从自己的方式走自己路的人

early age.(107)
早年。

NICK SCHIFRIN: So, fast-forwarding to today,does the boy who was doted on and who claimed(108)
NICK SCHIFRIN:所以,快到今天,那个被溺爱的男孩和谁声称

to catch fish that he didn't actually catch,is he going to consider giving up his nuclear(109)
为了捕捉他实际上没有捕获的鱼,他是否会考虑放弃他的核

weapons in talks with the U.S., and is hegoing to keep talking with the U.S., do you(110)
与美国谈判的武器,他是否会继续与美国交谈,是吗?

think?(111)
认为?

ANNA FIFIELD: There is no way he is givingup his nuclear weapons.(112)
ANNA FIFIELD:他无法放弃他的核武器。

He has put so much energy into this nuclearprogram, because it gives him a lot of legitimacy(113)
他为这个核计划投入了大量精力,因为它给了他很多合法性

in this militaristic regime.(114)
在这个军国主义政权中。

It's a way for him to placate the hard-liners.(115)
这是他安抚强硬派的一种方式。

Often, something that is not recognized aboutNorth Korea is that this nuclear program is(116)
通常,对朝鲜不承认的是这个核计划

a great source of national pride amongst theordinary people.(117)
是普通民众的民族自豪感的重要来源。

Even amongst people who defect and don't likethe regime, they're still proud that North(118)
即使在那些叛逃并且不喜欢政权的人中,他们仍然为北方感到骄傲

Korea has managed to develop this nuclearprogram that South Korea and Japan have not.(119)
韩国已经设法开发了韩国和日本没有的核计划。

It was in 2011, when he was taking over theleadership, that the Arab Spring was happening,(120)
2011年,当他接管领导时,阿拉伯之春正在发生,

and he saw what happened to Moammar Gadhafiin Libya, who had given up his nuclear program(121)
他看到利比亚的穆阿迈尔卡扎菲发生了什么事,他已经放弃了他的核计划

in a deal with the U.S.(122)
在与美国的交易中

So, I cannot see a situation where he givesit up entirely.(123)
所以,我看不出他完全放弃的情况。

But I can see a situation where he gives upsomething, he makes some gestures.(124)
但我可以看到他放弃一些东西的情况,他做了一些姿势。

He may give up some hardware, some of thesemissiles, because I think he does want these(125)
他可能放弃一些硬件,其中一些导弹,因为我认为他确实想要这些

diplomatic talks with the United States tocontinue, because he wants sanctions relief.(126)
与美国的外交谈判继续进行,因为他希望减轻制裁。

He wants to grow the economy, and he can'tdo that while the sanctions are in place.(127)
他希望发展经济,在制裁到位时他不能这样做。

NICK SCHIFRIN: An insight into Kim's motivations,into North Korea itself.(128)
NICK SCHIFRIN:深入了解Kim对朝鲜本身的动机。

The book is called "The Great Successor."(129)
这本书被称为“伟大的继承者”。

The author is Anna Fifield, the Beijing bureauchief of The Washington Post.(130)
作者是华盛顿邮报北京局局长安娜菲尔菲尔德。

Thank you very much.(131)
非常感谢你。

ANNA FIFIELD: Thank you.(132)
ANNA FIFIELD:谢谢。


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