Leon Panetta and Bill McCollum on where the impeachment inquiry goes next
2019-11-21 00:00:00


JUDY WOODRUFF: So let's step back now andtake a broader look at the testimony we have(1)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫(JUDY WOODRUFF):现在让我们退后一步,更广泛地了解我们拥有的证词

heard this week in these public impeachmenthearings.(2)
这周在这些公开弹each听证会上听到了。

We turn now to Leon Panetta.(3)
我们现在转到莱昂·帕内塔。

He was President Bill Clinton's chief of staff.(4)
他曾是克林顿总统的办公厅主任。

Later, he served as director of the CIA andthe secretary of defense for President Obama.(5)
后来,他担任了中央情报局局长和奥巴马总统的国防部长。

And former Florida Congressman RepresentativeBill McCollum, who was a Republican member(6)
还有前佛罗里达州众议员比尔·麦科勒姆(Bill McCollum),他是共和党议员

of the House Judiciary Committee, he alsoserved as one of the House managers for President(7)
众议院司法委员会主席,他还曾担任总统的众议院经理之一

Clinton's impeachment trial.(8)
克林顿的弹each审判。

Welcome to both of you.(9)
欢迎你们俩。

Leon Panetta, Secretary Panetta, I'm goingto start with you.(10)
莱昂·帕内塔(Leon Panetta),秘书帕内塔(Panetta),我将从你开始。

Taking everything we have heard so far inthe last week-and-a-half, have the Democrats(11)
拿走我们在过去一个半星期里听到的一切,让民主党人

strengthened their case?(12)
加强他们的案子?

Have they weakened it?(13)
他们削弱了吗?

Where do they stand?(14)
他们站在哪里?

LEON PANETTA, Former U.S. Secretary of Defense:Well, I don't think there's any question but(15)
美国前国防部长莱昂·帕内塔:我认为没有任何问题,但

that, when you look at all of the testimonythat's been provided, a lot of it by people(16)
当您查看所提供的所有证词时,很多人

who are professional and civil service, whoare committed to their jobs, but if you take(17)
谁是专业和公务员,谁致力于他们的工作,但如果你采取

all of the testimony, I don't think there'sany question but that the weight of the evidence(18)
所有的证词,我认为没有任何问题,但证据的分量

makes clear that the president, as president,tried to get a foreign president, the president(19)
明确表示,总统作为总统曾试图聘请外国总统,

of Ukraine, to conduct an investigation intoa political opponent, Joe Biden, and, in exchange,(20)
乌克兰,对一个政治对手乔·拜登进行调查,作为交换,

would get a visit to the Oval Office and the$400 million in foreign aid and foreign -- military(21)
将访问椭圆形办公室以及4亿美元的外国援助和外国军方

assistance that was being held up.(22)
被阻止的援助。

I think those points were emphasized todayagain by Fiona Hill, who I think made an excellent(23)
我认为今天Fiona Hill再次强调了这些观点,我认为他非常出色

point, that what the president did is, ratherthan focusing on the broad -- broad national(24)
关键是总统要做的是,而不是专注于广泛的

security issues that are involved with theUkraine, and what Russia is trying to do to(25)
乌克兰所涉及的安全问题,以及俄罗斯正在试图做什么

the Ukraine, and the assistance that we needto provide in order to defend them, was involved(26)
乌克兰,以及我们需要为捍卫他们而提供的援助,

in a domestic political errand, which wasto try to get an investigation into a political(27)
在国内政治事务中,试图对政治进行调查

opponent.(28)
对手。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Congressman McCollum, settingaside the impeachment question, would you(29)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫(JUDY WOODRUFF):议员麦克科勒姆(McCollum),搁置弹each问题,您能

agree with Leon Panetta that the Democratsdid build the case that the president, as(30)
同意莱昂·潘内塔(Leon Panetta)的观点,民主党人确实提出了总统的理由,

he said, tried to get the president of Ukraineto investigate the Bidens in exchange for(31)
他说,试图让乌克兰总统去调查拜登一家,以换取

what was just described?(32)
刚刚描述了什么?

BILL MCCOLLUM (R), Former U.S. Congressman:Well, Secretary Panetta and I are old friends,(33)
美国前国会议员比尔·麦科勒姆(R)​​:恩,帕内塔秘书和我是老朋友,

but we have a different perspective on thisparticular matter.(34)
但是我们对这件事有不同的看法。

I believe that the president has been tryingfor a long time to find out what happened(35)
我相信总统已经很长时间试图找出发生了什么事

with regard to Ukraine and the 19 -- or the2016 presidential election.(36)
关于乌克兰和19或2016年总统大选。

He was very concerned, as he should have been,with the corruption that was going on there,(37)
他本来应该担心的是那里正在发生的腐败,

with the fact that there were people -- clearly,evidence exists, although it wasn't brought(38)
有人的事实-显然,证据虽然没有带来

forward in these hearings, because the Democratsdenied Republicans -- and Devin Nunes expressed(39)
在这些听证会上前进,是因为民主党否认了共和党人-德文·纳恩斯表示

what that was -- the opportunity to bringforward witnesses that would have corroborated(40)
那是什么-提出可以证实的证人的机会

that.(41)
那。

The fact is that the oligarch who controlsthe primary interest in Burisma was corrupt.(42)
事实是,控制着Burisma首要利益的寡头已经腐败。

I think everybody understands that.(43)
我想每个人都明白。

And Hunter Biden, according to Devin Nunes-- we don't know -- I don't know any more(44)
根据德文·纳恩斯(Devin Nunes)的说法,还有亨特·拜登(Hunter Biden),我们不知道,我不知道了

than that -- may have made as much as $3 millionon a side deal that went into some organization(45)
比这还多-某公司的附带交易可能赚了300万美元

he had.(46)
他有。

We don't know the answers to that, but it'senough for me to believe -- and I believe(47)
我们不知道答案,但这足以让我相信-而且我相信

most Republicans think this way -- that thiswhole process has been in search of an impeachment(48)
大多数共和党人是这样认为的-整个过程都是在进行弹imp

for quite a while, ever since the presidentgot elected.(49)
自总统当选以来的相当长一段时间。

And in this case, they have landed on thisparticular instance, and suggested that the(50)
在这种情况下,他们已着手处理此特定实例,并建议

whole investigation that the president wasseeking, which I do believe he was seeking,(51)
总统正在寻求的整个调查,我相信他正在寻找,

was to get dirt on Vice President Biden, when,in fact, I don't believe that was his primary(52)
是要弄污拜登副总统,实际上,我不认为那是他的首要任务

motive.(53)
动机。

At least it's certainly sufficiently in doubtthat I don't think there's a chance in the(54)
至少,毫无疑问,我不认为

world that anybody, objectively, would findbribery or high crimes and misdemeanors to(55)
客观上任何人都会发现贿赂或高额犯罪和轻罪的世界

convict this president and remove him fromoffice.(56)
对这位总统定罪,并将他免职。

I just don't think this is at all that case.(57)
我只是根本不认为这种情况。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, Leon Panetta, why don'tsome of the points that Bill McCollum made,(58)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫(JUDY WOODRUFF):好吧,莱昂·帕内塔(Leon Panetta),为什么不比尔·麦科勒姆(Bill McCollum)提出一些观点,

that, hey, the president was -- felt aggrieved,he felt Ukraine was out to get him, or that(59)
嘿,总统-感到委屈,他觉得乌克兰想救他,或者

Ukrainian officials were out to get him, andthat that undercuts the Democrats' case?(60)
乌克兰官员出去找他,那削弱了民主党的立场?

LEON PANETTA: Well, I think you have to lookat the fundamental charge that's involved(61)
LEON PANETTA:好的,我认为您必须看看所涉及的基本指控

here.(62)
这里。

And the charge is that the president of theUnited States was trying to get a foreign(63)
指控是美国总统试图让外国人

leader to get involved in an investigationof a political opponent.(64)
领导人参与对政治对手的调查。

Whether it was Burisma, the main point, asall of the witnesses have pointed out, was(65)
正如所有证人所指出的,要点是否是布利西马是

to go after Joe Biden, and in order to ensurethat they would get an Oval Office meeting(66)
去追赶乔·拜登,并确保他们参加椭圆形办公室会议

and to get the military aid which was heldup, that they would have to make that kind(67)
并获得阻止的军事援助,他们将不得不做出那种

of announcement that they were going to conductthat kind of investigation.(68)
宣布他们将进行这种调查。

I mean, that is the abuse of power that Ithink everybody is focusing on.(69)
我的意思是,这是我认为每个人都在关注的权力滥用。

Bill McCollum would not want a Democraticpresident to engage with a foreign leader(70)
比尔·麦科勒姆(Bill McCollum)不想让民主党总统与外国领导人接触

to investigate a political -- a Republicanpolitical opponent.(71)
调查一个政治-共和党的政治对手。

That just is not done.(72)
那只是没有完成。

And it is an abuse of power.(73)
这是对权力的滥用。

That's the bottom line.(74)
那是底线。

And it's confirmed, very frankly, by the transcriptof the president himself that he released,(75)
坦率地说,总统释放的笔录证实了这一点,

in which he asked for the favor and makesvery clear that what he wants the president(76)
在其中他要求获得支持,并明确表示他要总统

to do is conduct an investigation of Joe Biden.(77)
要做的是对乔·拜登进行调查。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, Bill McCollum, if it'sproven -- whether or not you agree the Democrats(78)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫(JUDY WOODRUFF):好吧,比尔·麦科鲁姆(Bill McCollum),如果得到证实,那么您是否同意民主党

were able to prove it with these witnessesover the last week -- is that grounds for(79)
能够在上个星期与这些证人一起证明这一点-是因为

impeaching, bringing an impeachment chargeagainst a president?(80)
弹,,对总统提出弹each指控?

I mean, we don't -- we can't think of anotherpresident who's done something exactly like(81)
我的意思是,我们不-我们想不出另一位总统所做的事情与

this, can we?(82)
这可以吗?

BILL MCCOLLUM: Well, I first of all, believethat they will impeach the president.(83)
BILL MCCOLLUM:好吧,我首先相信他们会弹each总统。

The Democrats will go forward with articlesof impeachment.(84)
民主党将继续进行弹articles条款。

I, however, do not believe that it's sufficientgrounds.(85)
但是,我不认为这是充分的理由。

I wouldn't find him to be somebody I'd wantto remove for office from this, that I don't(86)
我不会发现他是我想为此辞职的人,但我不想

agree with all the policies of President Trump.(87)
同意特朗普总统的所有政策。

In fact, I suspect Secretary Panetta, if wesat down, we would find a lot of areas where(88)
实际上,我怀疑帕内塔秘书,如果我们坐下来,我们会发现很多地方

we agree on disagreeing with some of the foreignpolicies of this president.(89)
我们同意不同意这位总统的某些外交政策。

But where are you disagree with policy, whereyou don't agree with how he conducts himself(90)
但是你在哪里不同意政策,在哪里你不同意他的行为方式

or his temperament, or how he handled perhapsthe question of Ambassador Yovanovitch, those(91)
或他的气质,或他如何处理约瓦诺维奇大使的问题,那些

are all things that go to temperament andquestions that should be decided by the American(92)
是所有要变得气质的东西,应该由美国人来决定的问题

public in the next election.(93)
在下一次选举中公开。

They don't go to removing a president in themiddle of his term, when 63 million Americans(94)
他们不会在总统任期中罢免总统,当时有6,300万美国人

voted for him and like his style.(95)
投票给他,喜欢他的风格。

At least a lot of them do.(96)
至少有很多人这样做。

My conclusion to this is there was no quidpro quo.(97)
我的结论是,没有交换条件。

They got the aid at the end of the day.(98)
他们最终获得了援助。

The 55-days delay was in some paperwork authorization.(99)
55天的延误是由于某些文书工作的授权。

And we heard testimony yesterday from witnessesthat weren't the president, who said, look,(100)
昨天我们听到不是总统的目击者的证词。

it didn't cost any of the military aid oranything else.(101)
它没有花费任何军事援助或其他任何费用。

It actually was being processed in the samefashion it would have been normally, a delay(102)
实际上,它的处理方式与正常情况相同,这是一个延迟

technically only in paperwork.(103)
从技术上讲仅在文书工作中。

So I think this has been blown way out ofproportion.(104)
因此,我认为这已经超出比例。

If it weren't for the president's -- the viewpointof a lot of people of the president, they(105)
如果不是总统的话-总统很多人的看法,他们

don't like him for a lot of reasons, don'tagree with his policy, don't like him personally,(106)
出于很多原因不喜欢他,不同意他的政策,不喜欢他个人,

et cetera, liked -- have always liked to seehim out of office, we wouldn't be at this(107)
等,很喜欢-一直很喜欢见他不在办公室,我们不会

point today.(108)
今天。

When we did President Clinton's impeachmenttrial, it was just the -- almost the flip(109)
当我们进行克林顿总统的弹each审判时,这只是-几乎是

side or the opposite of that.(110)
侧面或相反。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Just about 20 seconds leftfor each one of you.(111)
JUDY WOODRUFF:你们每个人还剩下20秒。

Leon Panetta, does it -- is this somethingthe Democrats should go for with, if it's(112)
莱昂·潘内塔(Leon Panetta),做到了–如果这是民主党人应该追求的目标

only the Democrats who favor it, if they don'thave Republicans on board?(113)
如果他们没有共和党人,只有支持它的民主党人吗?

LEON PANETTA: Well, I really think that theDemocrats ought not to rush to judgment here.(114)
LEON PANETTA:好的,我真的认为民主党人不应该在这里急于作出判断。

There are some issues that I think need tobe looked at.(115)
我认为需要研究一些问题。

What is -- what is John Bolton's testimony?(116)
什么是-约翰·博尔顿的证词是什么?

What is Mick Mulvaney's testimony here?(117)
Mick Mulvaney在这里的证词是什么?

What is Mike Pompeo's testimony.(118)
迈克·庞培的证词是什么?

I think there is an urgent need to get thisadditional evidence presented before anybody(119)
我认为迫切需要在所有人面前提出这些补充证据

comes to any kind of final conclusion.(120)
得出任何最终结论。

JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Bill McCollum, I guessthe expectation now is that that won't be(121)
JUDY WOODRUFF:而且,Bill McCollum,我想现在的期望是不会

forthcoming.(122)
即将来临。

BILL MCCOLLUM: Well, I don't know what's goingto happen in this regard, because the president,(123)
BILL MCCOLLUM:好吧,我不知道这方面会发生什么,因为总统,

assuming this goes to the Judiciary Committee,presumably is going to be given some opportunity(124)
假设这要交给司法委员会,大概会有一些机会

to present something.(125)
呈现一些东西。

Maybe the Democrats on that committee...(126)
也许那个委员会的民主党人...

JUDY WOODRUFF: They will.(127)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:他们会的。

BILL MCCOLLUM: ... will allow some testimony.(128)
BILL MCCOLLUM:...将允许作证。

And if that's the case, who knows what comesforth in that regard.(129)
如果是这样,谁知道这方面会发生什么。

My hypothesis to you about what the presidentmight have been doing and what his motives(130)
我对你的假设是关于总统可能一直在做什么以及他的动机是什么

were is equally valid to that of SecretaryPanetta.(131)
与帕内塔秘书一样有效。

And I think the problem is, all of these hearingshave led to a wash at this point.(132)
我认为问题在于,所有这些听证会都导致了这一点。

We will see what happens in the future.(133)
我们将看到将来会发生什么。

I'm very open-minded, but I don't see thisrising with the same type of thing with President(134)
我很开明,但我看不到与总统同类型的事情在上升

Clinton, where we knew that he committed thesecrimes of perjury and obstruction of justice.(135)
克林顿,我们知道他犯了这些伪证罪和妨碍司法公正的罪行。

But the public really didn't want to see himremoved from office.(136)
但是公众真的不想看到他被免职。

And, at the end of the day, for whatever reason,I think that was the will.(137)
而且,归根结底,无论出于何种原因,我认为那都是意志。

In this case, a lot of people would like tosee him removed from office because they don't(138)
在这种情况下,很多人希望看到他被免职,因为他们没有

agree with him, but I don't think you havethe actual crimes.(139)
同意他的观点,但我认为您没有真正的罪行。

And I don't think you have the abuse of powerthat's been demonstrated, to the degree that(140)
而且我不认为您滥用了已经证明的权力,

you should remove him or should even go forwardwith this.(141)
您应该删除他,甚至应该继续这样做。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, you're right.(142)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:嗯,你是对的。

We are only part of the way into the process.(143)
我们只是该过程的一部分。

The Intelligence Committee still has thismatter.(144)
情报委员会仍然有此事。

Then it goes to the Judiciary Committee, thento the House floor, before we even think about(145)
然后去司法委员会,然后去众议院,在我们考虑之前

it going to the Senate.(146)
它去参议院。

Gentlemen, thank you both.(147)
先生们,谢谢你们。

We do appreciate it.(148)
我们对此表示赞赏。

Bill McCollum, Leon Panetta, thank you.(149)
Bill McCollum,Leon Panetta,谢谢。


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