Why Rep. Raskin says he's changed his mind on impeaching Trump
2019-05-21 00:00:00


JUDY WOODRUFF: The showdown over the balanceof power played out again today on Capitol(1)
JUDY WOODRUFF:今天在国会大厦再次展示了权力平衡

Hill, as congressional Democrats seek answersfrom the White House, and the Trump administration(2)
希尔作为国会民主党人寻求白宫和特朗普政府的答案

exerts executive privilege.(3)
行使特权。

Our Lisa Desjardins has the latest.(4)
我们的Lisa Desjardins有最新的。

LISA DESJARDINS: Another hearing about theMueller report, and another empty chair.(5)
LISA DESJARDINS:关于Mueller报告的另一个听证会,以及另一个空椅子。

REP.(6)
REP。

JERROLD NADLER (D-NY): Our subpoenas are notoptional.(7)
JERROLD NADLER(D-NY):我们的传票不是选择性的。

Mr. McGahn has a legal obligation to be herefor this scheduled appearance.(8)
McGahn先生有法律义务在这里安排出场。

If he doesn't immediately correct his mistake,this committee will have no choice but to(9)
如果他没有立即纠正他的错误,那么这个委员会将别无选择

enforce the subpoena against him.(10)
强制执行传票反对他。

LISA DESJARDINS: Former White House counselDon McGahn, a key witness in special counsel(11)
LISA DESJARDINS:前白宫律师Don McGahn,特别顾问的主要证人

Robert Mueller's investigation, he ignoreda subpoena to appear before the House Judiciary(12)
罗伯特·穆勒(Robert Mueller)的调查显示,他无视传票出现在众议院司法机构面前

Committee today.(13)
委员会今天。

President Trump has instructed McGahn andothers not to testify before congressional(14)
特朗普总统已指示麦加和其他人不要在国会作证前作证

Oversight Committees, which he and other Republicans,like Doug Collins of Georgia, argue are political(15)
监督委员会,他和其他共和党人,如佐治亚州的道格·科林斯,都认为是政治性的

theater.(16)
剧院。

REP.(17)
REP。

DOUG COLLINS (R-GA): The chairman orchestratedtoday's confrontation, when he could have(18)
DOUG COLLINS(R-GA):主席精心策划了今天的对抗,当时他可以

avoided it, because he is more interestedin the fight than fact-finding.(19)
避免它,因为他对战斗更感兴趣而不是事实调查。

LISA DESJARDINS: But many House Democratssee a constitutional issue, and are debating(20)
LISA DESJARDINS:但许多众议院民主党人认为存在宪法问题,并且正在辩论

how to respond, in the past day, rising sentimentthat the House should open an impeachment(21)
在过去的一天里,如何回应众议院应该开弹劾的情绪上升

inquiry.(22)
查询。

Massachusetts Congressman and presidentialcandidate Seth Moulton.(23)
马萨诸塞州议员兼总统候选人塞思莫尔顿。

REP.(24)
REP。

SETH MOULTON (D-MA), Presidential Candidate:It's past time to have this debate, and I(25)
SETH MOULTON(D-MA),总统候选人:现在是时候进行这场辩论了,我

think, frankly, we waited too long waitingfor the Mueller report to come out.(26)
坦率地说,我们等待Mueller报告出来等待太久了。

LISA DESJARDINS: But House Speaker Nancy Pelosihas cautioned against speeding toward impeachment.(27)
LISA DESJARDINS:但是众议院议长Nancy Pelosi告诫不要加速弹劾。

Congresswoman Karen Bass of California agrees.(28)
加利福尼亚州的国会女议员凯伦巴斯同意。

REP.(29)
REP。

KAREN BASS (D-CA): I think that this lawlessadministration is probably going to force(30)
KAREN BASS(D-CA):我认为这种无法无天的政府可能会强制执行

us to impeach, but I don't believe that weare there today.(31)
我们要弹劾,但我不相信我们今天在那里。

LISA DESJARDINS: This as the president ison offense, with a mocking tone in Pennsylvania(32)
LISA DESJARDINS:这是因为总统在进攻端,在宾夕法尼亚州用嘲弄的语调

last night:(33)
昨晚:

DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States:Angry Democrats all after us with all of it.(34)
DONALD TRUMP,美国总统:愤怒的民主党人全都跟着我们。

And they still have -- it's like little embersthat are burning.(35)
它们仍然有 - 它就像燃烧的小余烬。

They're going crazy, because when the Muellerreport was finished, it said no collusion.(36)
他们疯了,因为当穆勒报告结束时,它说没有勾结。

They went crazy.(37)
他们疯了。

LISA DESJARDINS: House Democrats have calleda meeting for tomorrow morning to talk about(38)
LISA DESJARDINS:众议院民主党人已召集明天上午的会议进行讨论

their next steps.(39)
他们的下一步。

For the "PBS NewsHour," I'm Lisa Desjardins.(40)
对于“PBS NewsHour”,我是Lisa Desjardins。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Joining us now from CapitolHill is Congressman Jamie Raskin, a Democrat(41)
JUDY WOODRUFF:现在从国会山加入我们的是国会议员Jamie Raskin,民主党人

from Maryland.(42)
来自马里兰州

He's a member of the House Judiciary Committee.(43)
他是众议院司法委员会的成员。

Congressman Raskin, welcome back to the "NewsHour."(44)
国会议员拉斯金,欢迎回到“新闻时报”。

REP.(45)
REP。

JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): Thanks for having me,Judy.(46)
JAMIE RASKIN(D-MD):谢谢你让我,朱迪。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Absolutely.(47)
JUDY WOODRUFF:当然。

You are a member who is calling for impeachmentproceedings to begin, but, as you know, Speaker(48)
你是一个要求弹劾程序开始的成员,但是,如你所知,议长

Pelosi is saying it's too soon.(49)
佩洛西说这太早了。

She's saying Democrats need to focus rightnow on the issues, and, besides, there are(50)
她说民主党人现在需要关注这些问题,而且还有

other avenues that haven't been exhaustedyet.(51)
尚未用尽的其他途径。

REP.(52)
REP。

JAMIE RASKIN: Right.(53)
杰米拉斯金:对。

Well, you know, a number of members on theJudiciary Committee, probably a majority of(54)
嗯,你知道,司法委员会的一些成员,可能是大多数成员

the Judiciary Committee, now feels that it'stime to launch an impeachment inquiry.(55)
司法委员会现在觉得是时候发起弹劾调查了。

Now, that's different from impeachment.(56)
现在,这与弹劾不同。

And the press has framed this as impeachmentor no impeachment.(57)
新闻界将此视为弹劾或弹劾。

The real question is, should we have an inquirythat looks into whether there have been high(58)
真正的问题是,我们是否应该进行调查,研究是否存在高位

crimes and misdemeanors?(59)
罪行和不端行为?

And I think there has been such overwhelmingevidence presented to us from the special(60)
而且我认为从特别报道中向我们提供了如此强大的证据

counsel in the Mueller report of presidentialobstruction of justice, 11 different episodes(61)
穆勒总统阻挠司法报告的律师,11集不同

of it, that it's staring us in the face.(62)
它,它正盯着我们的脸。

And since the Mueller report finally cameout, after that agonizing choreography by(63)
自从穆勒的报告终于出来后,经过那种令人痛苦的舞蹈编排

Attorney General Barr, we have had even moreobstruction from the White House.(64)
检察长巴尔,我们对白宫的阻挠更大。

The president has essentially ordered everybodyin the executive branch not to comply with(65)
总统基本上命令行政部门的每个人都不遵守

our subpoenas, not to render testimony toCongress, not to produce documents and so(66)
我们的传票,不是为国会作证,也不是为了出示文件等

on.(67)
上。

So it's a completely unacceptable situation,an untenable situation, and we need this to(68)
所以这是一个完全不可接受的情况,一个站不住脚的局面,我们需要这样做

be on the table along with everything elsethat we're doing.(69)
与我们正在做的其他事情一起摆在桌面上。

(CROSSTALK)
JUDY WOODRUFF: But even -- if I could justinterrupt, but even with the definition, OK,(70)
JUDY WOODRUFF:但即使 - 如果我可以打断,但即使有了定义,好的,

you're saying it's an inquiry, rather thanan impeachment formal proceeding, you still(71)
你说这是一个调查,而不是弹劾正式程序,你还是

have the speaker and others saying, you aregoing to have to go to the courts.(72)
让发言人和其他人说,你将不得不去法院。

You need court rulings on the question ofexecutive privilege, other constitutional(73)
你需要法院裁决行政特权,其他宪法问题

questions.(74)
的问题。

Can you really proceed in any meaningful wayunless you have the courts with you?(75)
除非你和法院在一起,否则你能真正以任何有意义的方式进行吗?

REP.(76)
REP。

JAMIE RASKIN: Well, I think, first of all,the courts are going to be with us, starting(77)
JAMIE RASKIN:嗯,我认为,首先,法院将与我们一起开始

with yesterday's excellent ruling for theOversight Committee in its desire, and our(78)
以及昨天对监督委员会的绝佳裁决,以及我们的愿望

desire, because I serve on that committee,too, in our desire to obtain the information(79)
欲望,因为我也是在委员会中服务于我们获取信息的愿望

from the president's accountants.(80)
来自总统的会计师。

And the court there made the critical point,which is that, if Congress has the power under(81)
那里的法院提出了关键点,即如果国会有权力的话

Article 1, to impeach the president, we certainlyhave the lesser power to investigate the president(82)
第1条,弹劾总统,我们当然有较小的权力调查总统

for criminal deeds.(83)
犯罪行为。

But you have the executive branch going aroundand saying, the Congress isn't a prosecutor,(84)
但你有行政部门四处走动说,国会不是检察官,

they can't get information from us about financialimproprieties or other crimes that may have(85)
他们无法从我们那里获得有关可能存在的财务不当或其他犯罪的信息

been committed.(86)
一直致力于。

And the court completely repudiated that argument.(87)
法庭完全否定了这一论点。

So we have got the authority to get all ofthat stuff, and the Supreme Court has been(88)
所以我们有权获得所有这些东西,最高法院一直都是

very clear that the fact-finding functionis an essential prerogative of the legislative(89)
非常清楚,事实调查功能是立法的基本特权

branch of government.(90)
政府部门。

JUDY WOODRUFF: What about Speaker Pelosi'spoint, though, Congressman, that unless there(91)
JUDY WOODRUFF:佩洛西议长的观点是,国会议员,除非那里

is bipartisan agreement on this in the Senate,which there is not now, you're just, in effect,(92)
两党在参议院就此达成协议,现在还没有,你只是,实际上,

spinning your wheels?(93)
旋转你的车轮?

REP.(94)
REP。

JAMIE RASKIN: Well, we love our speaker, andwe love her because of her political judgment,(95)
JAMIE RASKIN:嗯,我们爱我们的演讲者,我们因为她的政治判断而爱她,

and I think that that is precisely what weare going to have to be discussing as we move(96)
而且我认为这正是我们在行动时必须要讨论的问题

forward.(97)
向前。

Obviously, there is overwhelming sentimentfor launching an impeachment inquiry in our(98)
显然,在我们这个问题上发起弹劾调查的态度非常强烈

party.(99)
派对。

And we have heard from a lot of even moreconservative members that they want the Democratic(100)
我们从很多更保守的成员那里听说他们想要民主党

Party to stand tall and stand strong for therule of law and for the Constitution.(101)
党要站稳脚跟,坚持法治和宪法。

You know, the question of what the Senatewill do -- and we say this with respect to(102)
你知道,参议院会做什么的问题 - 我们就这样说

everything.(103)
一切。

You know, we just have prescription drug reformto lower everybody's prescription drug prices.(104)
你知道,我们只是通过处方药改革来降低每个人的处方药价格。

We passed gun safety to try to close the Internetloophole and the private gun show loophole.(105)
我们通过枪支安全试图关闭互联网漏洞和私人枪支显示漏洞。

We don't know what the Senate is going todo.(106)
我们不知道参议院将要做什么。

Mitch McConnell seems to be sitting on everything.(107)
Mitch McConnell似乎坐在一切。

He calls himself now the Grim Reaper, becausehe wants the Senate to be the graveyard for(108)
他现在称自己为死神,因为他希望参议院成为他的坟场

all of the good legislation we pass in theHouse.(109)
我们在众议院通过的所有良好立法。

But you know what?(110)
但你知道吗?

We have to ignore that and go on and do ourjobs and try to encourage them as much as(111)
我们必须忽略这一点,继续做我们的工作并尽力鼓励他们

possible to do theirs, too.(112)
也可以做他们的。

And I think this situation is no different.(113)
我认为这种情况也不例外。

JUDY WOODRUFF: But it's not just the Senate.(114)
JUDY WOODRUFF:但这不仅仅是参议院。

The latest poll we did, came out earlier thismonth, showed only 39 percent of Americans(115)
我们在本月早些时候发布的最新民意调查显示,只有39%的美国人

think that impeachment proceedings shouldbegin.(116)
认为弹劾程序应该开始。

REP.(117)
REP。

JAMIE RASKIN: Well, and, you know, I wasn'tpart of that 39 percent.(118)
JAMIE RASKIN:嗯,而且,你知道,我不是39%的一部分。

I was part of the 61 percent.(119)
我是61%的一部分。

I think a lot of us were on the committee.(120)
我想我们很多人都在委员会。

And we were encouraging our people to say,stay cool, let's see if we can make this happen(121)
我们鼓励我们的人说,保持冷静,让我们看看我们是否能够实现这一目标

through contempt citations.(122)
通过蔑视引用。

Let's see if we can get the administrationto behave reasonably.(123)
让我们看看我们是否可以让政府合理地行事。

I think the whole country can see now thatthis president is acting in a lawless and(124)
我认为整个国家现在可以看到这位总统在无法无天的行动中行事

totally unprecedented way, when he says, weare not going to cooperate with Congress at(125)
这是前所未有的方式,当他说,我们不打算与国会合作

all.(126)
所有。

So they're operating with what they thinkis immunity from the Constitution and absolute(127)
因此,他们的行动与他们认为对宪法和绝对的豁免权有关

impunity.(128)
逍遥法外。

So, I flipped over.(129)
所以,我翻了个身。

Last week, I was with where most people werein saying, let's give it some more time.(130)
上周,我和大多数人在一起说的话,让我们给它一些时间。

But now I just -- I have seen enough.(131)
但现在我只是 - 我已经看够了。

And I think that we do need to move forwardat some point, and I hope quickly, to an impeachment(132)
而且我认为我们确实需要在某个时候向前迈进,我希望很快就能弹劾

inquiry.(133)
查询。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Can you move ahead on thisif you don't have your leadership's support?(134)
JUDY WOODRUFF:如果你没有领导的支持,你能否继续前进?

REP.(135)
REP。

JAMIE RASKIN: No, I think we have got to betogether as a team.(136)
JAMIE RASKIN:不,我认为我们必须团结一致。

And we have got a great leader on the JudiciaryCommittee in Jerry Nadler.(137)
我们在Jerry Nadler的司法委员会中有一位伟大的领导者。

And we have got a great leader as speaker.(138)
我们有一位伟大的领导者作为演讲者。

And the Democrats are unified in trying tostop this lawlessness.(139)
民主党人在试图阻止这种无法无天状态时是统一的。

Judy, it is not an easy situation, as youknow.(140)
朱迪,你知道这不是一件容易的事。

We are dealing with the most lawless presidentof our lifetimes.(141)
我们正在处理我们一生中最无法无天的总统。

And we're all trying to figure this out together.(142)
我们都在努力想出这个问题。

But I think that we have got great unity andsolidarity within our caucus, and we are going(143)
但我认为我们的核心小组内部已经有了很大的团结和团结,我们正在努力

to move together as one to try to get thisdone.(144)
一起移动,试图完成这项工作。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Congressman Jamie Raskin ofMaryland, who is a member of the Judiciary(145)
JUDY WOODRUFF:马里兰州的国会议员Jamie Raskin,他是司法机构的成员

Committee, thank you.(146)
委员会,谢谢。

REP.(147)
REP。

JAMIE RASKIN: Thank you for having me.(148)
JAMIE RASKIN:谢谢你拥有我。


All News Articles fetched from PBS RSS Feeds and copyrighted by pbs.org