Mark Shields and Ramesh Ponnuru on Trump, Ukraine and 'quid pro quo'
2019-10-04 00:00:00


JUDY WOODRUFF: And an update.(1)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:还有更新。

Late today, the House of Representatives'Oversight Committee formally notified the(2)
今天晚些时候,众议院监督委员会正式通知

White House that it is issuing a subpoenafor documents related to the impeachment investigation.(3)
白宫表示,它正在就有关弹each调查的文件发出传票。

Now to the political analysis of Shields andPonnuru.(4)
现在开始对希尔兹和庞努鲁进行政治分析。

That is syndicated columnist Mark Shieldsand Ramesh Ponnuru of "The National Review."(5)
那是《国家评论》的专栏作家马克·希尔兹和拉梅什·庞努鲁。

David Brooks is away.(6)
大卫·布鲁克斯不在。

Hello to both of you.(7)
大家好

So, the news just keeps coming.(8)
因此,新闻不断传来。

It's been a week of cascading informationabout what the president said in a phone call.(9)
关于总统在电话中所说的信息,已经过去了一周。

And then the president himself, Mark, reinforcesthis with announcing to the world that he's(10)
然后,总统本人马克(Mark)通过向全世界宣布他正在

urging China to look into Joe Biden and hisson Hunter.(11)
敦促中国研究拜登和他的儿子亨特。

My bottom-line question for both of you is,is there fire here?(12)
我对你们俩的底线问题是,这里有火吗?

Is there evidence, in your mind, of eithera law that's been broken or a violation of(13)
您是否有证据证明某项法律已被违反或违反

the president's oath?(14)
总统的誓言?

Or is this just smoke?(15)
还是这只是烟?

MARK SHIELDS: I think there's more than smoke,Judy.(16)
马克·希尔兹:我想,不仅仅是烟,朱迪。

I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one onTV, but there's certainly a strong case to(17)
我不是律师,而且我不在电视上玩,但肯定有充分的理由要

be made that the president openly solicitedand sought the intervention and involvement(18)
被要求总统公开征集并寻求干预和参与

of a foreign government on behalf of his owncandidacy, an American presidential campaign.(19)
代表他自己的候选人资格,即美国总统竞选的外国政府。

And I think, usually, it's the law that'sin dispute in these cases of a big argument,(20)
而且我认为,通常在这些大争议案件中,法律是有争议的,

rather, about facts.(21)
而是关于事实。

There's no real argument about facts here.(22)
这里没有关于事实的真正争论。

They're pretty much out in the open.(23)
他们几乎是公开的。

And the president really opened it up on thedriveway on Thursday, when he bid China to(24)
总统确实在星期四在车道上向中国开放时,

come in and come up with information, unflattering,libelous or criminal information, on Joe Biden(25)
进来并想出有关乔·拜登的信息,包括and媚,诽谤或犯罪信息

and his family.(26)
和他的家人。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Ramesh, do you see this aseither a law broken or a violation of his(27)
JUDY WOODRUFF:Ramesh,您认为这是违反法律还是违反了他的

oath?(28)
誓言?

RAMESH PONNURU: We have this tendency to seescandals in terms of hidden events that have(29)
拉姆什·庞努鲁(RAMESH PONNURU):我们倾向于从丑闻中发现隐藏事件

to be uncovered.(30)
被发现。

And so we can't always process when the presidentsays something in public, the way he did with(31)
因此,当总统在公开场合发表讲话时,我们不可能总是像他那样

respect to China, when he openly, publicly,with the world watching, said that he wanted(32)
尊重中国时,他公开,公开,世界瞩目时说,他要

China to investigate political opponents,and that his treatment of China in trade negotiations(33)
中国调查政治对手,并认为他在贸易谈判中对待中国

would depend on that.(34)
取决于那。

All of his defenders have been saying, noquid pro quo.(35)
他所有的防守者都在说,没有什么交换条件。

We saw a quid pro quo on national television.(36)
我们在国家电视台上看到了一个交换条件。

JUDY WOODRUFF: And, of course, the presidentsaid today -- made a point of coming out today(37)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫(JUDY WOODRUFF):当然,总统今天说–提出了今天要出来的观点

and saying to the press, no, there's no quidpro quo.(38)
对新闻界说,不,没有交换条件。

I'm not tying what China does with regardto these investigations to the trade negotiations.(39)
在贸易谈判中,我没有把中国在这些调查方面的所作所为。

But he did say that yesterday.(40)
但是他昨天确实这么说。

RAMESH PONNURU: Right.(41)
拉莫什·庞努鲁:对。

He said it.(42)
他说了。

And he -- I think he realized that he madea mistake, and he is trying to un-say it.(43)
而且他-我认为他意识到自己犯了一个错误,并且他正试图取消这一说法。

But it also shows you that he will undercutthe defenses that his allies make, which is(44)
但这也向您表明,他将削弱盟友的防御,这是

one reason why a lot of Republicans have beenheading for the tall grass.(45)
许多共和党人一直前往高高的草丛的原因之一。

They don't want to be out there defendingthe administration with a line that the administration(46)
他们不想在那里为政府辩护,

itself might abandon.(47)
本身可能会放弃。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, Mark -- Mark...(48)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:好吧,马克-马克...

(CROSSTALK)
MARK SHIELDS: No, I think Ramesh's point issalient and right.(49)
马克·希尔兹:不,我认为拉梅什的观点很明显是正确的。

There's been a little bit of the old SherlockHolmes story about the dog that didn't bark,(50)
夏洛克·福尔摩斯(Sherlock Holmes)上有一段关于那只狗没有吠叫的故事,

the story of the dog that, when the race horsewas stolen, the dog didn't bark in the night,(51)
这只狗的故事是,当赛马被盗时,它在夜间没有吠叫,

which suggested that maybe it was somebodyinside the household who was responsible for(52)
这表明也许是家庭内部的某人负责

the crime.(53)
犯罪。

The dog didn't bark.(54)
那只狗没有吠叫。

There's no Republicans -- usually, Republicans-- there's a number of Republicans you can(55)
没有共和党人-通常是共和党人-有许多共和党人可以

count on to be on television.(56)
指望在电视上。

There's no such term as indecent exposureto them.(57)
没有不雅之词。

If there's a microphone and a camera, they'rethere.(58)
如果有麦克风和摄像头,它们在那里。

All of a sudden as Ramesh puts it, they'rein the tall grass.(59)
就像Ramesh所说的,突然之间,他们就在高高的草丛中。

They don't want to.(60)
他们不想。

And the reason is, Judy, that there is noWhite House strategy.(61)
朱迪(Judy)的原因是没有白宫战略。

I mean, it's pretty obvious.(62)
我的意思是,这很明显。

I mean, the difference between this and BillClinton in 1998, when Clinton effectively(63)
我的意思是,这与1998年克林顿(Clinton)

compartmentalized, I'm going about my business,Donald Trump, as one leading Republican said(64)
正如一位主要的共和党人所说,我正在做生意,唐纳德·特朗普(Donald Trump)

to me this week, ought to be working on prescriptiondrugs.(65)
对我而言,本周应该研究处方药。

He ought to be doing that and holding meetingson it, and this and that and the other thing.(66)
他应该这样做,并就此,另一件事情召开会议。

And he's totally obsessed with this.(67)
而且他完全沉迷于此。

And he -- so if you're going to defend him,you don't know what you're going to be defending(68)
而且他-所以,如果您要捍卫他,您将不知道自己将要捍卫什么

an hour from now or certainly tomorrow morning.(69)
从现在开始一个小时,或者明天早上确定一个小时。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Do you see a -- did you seea -- do you discern a White House strategy(70)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫(JUDY WOODRUFF):您是否看到了白宫战略?

in all of this?(71)
在所有这一切中?

RAMESH PONNURU: Well, I think, as often isthe case with this administration, there is(72)
拉姆什·庞努鲁(RAMESH PONNURU):我认为,就像本届政府经常发生的那样,

a strategy for holding the president's basesupporters.(73)
举行总统基本支持者战略。

And that may well be enough, because you needa two-thirds supermajority in the Senate to(74)
这可能就足够了,因为您需要参议院的三分之二多数才能

convict and remove a president from office.(75)
定罪并罢免总统。

So if you're looking forward to the endgame,just maintaining your base is enough.(76)
因此,如果您期待残局,仅维持基础就足够了。

I don't see a strategy right now that is tryingto change the minds to of people in the middle.(77)
我现在没有看到一种试图改变中间人观念的策略。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Meanwhile, Mark, the congressionalDemocrats, the House Democrats -- and we just(78)
JUDY WOODRUFF:同时,Mark,国会民主党人,众议院民主党人-我们只是

mentioned another one -- they're asking theWhite House now for documents.(79)
提到了另一个-他们正在向白宫索要文件。

I was told just a moment ago it's White HouseChief of Staff Mick Mulvaney, among others.(80)
刚才我被告知是白宫办公厅主任米克·穆尔瓦尼(Mick Mulvaney)等人。

They're asking for documents as they pursuethese investigations.(81)
他们在进行这些调查时要求提供文件。

But they have asked Secretary of State Pompeo.(82)
但是他们要求国务卿庞培。

They have asked Vice President Pence.(83)
他们问彭斯副总统。

This is not -- they seem to be moving brisklywith this.(84)
事实并非如此-他们似乎正在为此迅速发展。

What does that tell you?(85)
这告诉你什么?

Is that the smart course?(86)
那是聪明的课程吗?

Should they be taking their time?(87)
他们应该花时间吗?

What do you make of this?(88)
你怎么看的

MARK SHIELDS: Well, I think events are verymuch in the saddle.(89)
马克·希尔兹(MARK SHIELDS):好吧,我认为大事要紧。

And I think it's moved a lot faster than anybodyanticipated.(90)
而且我认为它的移动速度比任何人预期的都要快。

If a week ago, you had suggested that thepresident was going to call for the arrest(91)
如果是一周前,您曾建议总统将要求逮捕

and trial on treason for the chairman of theHouse Intelligence Committee this week, and(92)
并在本周为众议院情报委员会主席进行叛国罪审判,以及

go on at a pace, as Ramesh described, as hisnegotiation on trade with China on the basis(93)
正如拉梅什所描述的那样,以与中国进行贸易谈判的基础

of information on the Bidens, you know, it-- so I don't think there's any master plan(94)
关于拜登的信息,您知道的,所以我认为没有任何总体规划

here, Judy.(95)
朱迪

And the White House's decision to say, wewant a vote on the impeachment in the House,(96)
白宫决定说,我们要对白宫的弹imp进行表决,

that puts a lot of House Republicans in abad position.(97)
这使很多众议院共和党人处于不利地位。

I mean, do you want to vote against an impeachmentinquiry and then get overcome by events, I(98)
我的意思是,您想对弹inquiry调查投反对票,然后被事件克服吗?

mean, to put you in a position November of2020 when you wanted -- it looks like you(99)
意思是说,要在2020年11月将您放到您想要的位置上-看起来您

wanted the dust everything under the rug,because, given the velocity with which disclosures(100)
想要将地毯下的所有东西都除尘,因为给定披露的速度

are being made, that's a very risky vote fora lot of House Republicans?(101)
对于很多众议院共和党人来说,这是一个非常冒险的投票?

JUDY WOODRUFF: Right.(102)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:对。

Do you want to give the Democrats, the HouseDemocrats, a grade on how they're pursuing(103)
您想给民主党人,众议院民主党人打分吗?

this?(104)
这个?

RAMESH PONNURU: Well, I think there have beensome errors.(105)
RAMESH PONNURU:嗯,我认为这里有些错误。

I think that Chairman Schiff's dissemblingreally about his contacts or his staff's contacts(106)
我认为席夫主席对他或他的员工的联系真的很反感

with the whistle-blower was an unforced error.(107)
告密者是一个非强制性的错误。

But I think the key thing going forward, theDemocrats have to internalize that the politically(108)
但是我认为前进的关键是,民主党必须在政治上内化

smart thing to do is not to constantly betrying to figure out the politically smart(109)
聪明的事情是不要不断地试图弄清政治上的聪明

thing to do at each step of the process.(110)
在过程的每个步骤中要做的事情。

They have got to handle this like a seriousinquiry for adults and not be distracted by(111)
他们必须像对待成年人一样认真地对待这个问题,不要被分散注意力

every moment's polls.(112)
每时每刻的民意调查。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Do you think they're doingthat right now?(113)
JUDY WOODRUFF:您认为他们现在正在这样做吗?

RAMESH PONNURU: I think that they are trying.(114)
RAMESH PONNURU:我认为他们正在尝试。

I think that Speaker Nancy Pelosi has madea very concerted effort to get Democrats to(115)
我认为议长南希·佩洛西(Nancy Pelosi)做出了非常一致的努力,以使民主党人

take a step back a little bit, not be gleefulabout condemning this administration, but(116)
退后一步,不要为谴责这一政府而高兴,但

to rather have a posture of seeing where thefacts go.(117)
宁愿摆姿势看看事实的去向。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Mark, you have been watchingthis city for a long time.(118)
JUDY WOODRUFF:Mark,您已经看了很长时间这个城市了。

Do you think this is something the Democratscan get done?(119)
您认为民主党可以做到吗?

They have said they want to get it done asquickly as possible.(120)
他们说他们想尽快完成它。

Can they get something like this, the inquiryfinished, move on potentially to an actual(121)
他们能得到这样的信息吗,查询结束了,有可能继续进行到实际

impeachment vote in a matter of a few weeksor month?(122)
在几周或一个月内进行弹each投票?

MARK SHIELDS: I think probably months, Judy.(123)
马克·希尔兹:我想大概几个月了,朱迪。

But, I mean, just take somebody like MikePompeo, secretary of state.(124)
但是,我的意思是,就请像国务卿迈克·庞培这样的人。

They were talking seriously a week ago abouthim running for the United States Senate from(125)
一周前,他们在认真谈论他竞选美国参议院的消息。

Kansas.(126)
堪萨斯州。

He was the logical inevitable candidate ofthe Republicans.(127)
他是共和党人必然的必然候选人。

I think he's a lot less so today.(128)
我认为他今天的情况要少得多。

I mean, this is reaching out and touchingmore and more people.(129)
我的意思是,这正在延伸并吸引越来越多的人。

I do disagree with Ramesh on NICK SCHIFRIN:and the Intelligence Committee.(130)
我确实同意拉米什(Ramesh)关于尼克·希夫林(NICK SCHIFRIN)和情报委员会的意见。

I think it's absolutely natural that the whistle-blower,a professional public employee, would go to(131)
我认为举报者,专业的公共雇员,去

the staff.(132)
职员。

I mean, he has been surrounded by people whohave been hostile.(133)
我的意思是,他一直被敌对的人包围。

And I think it's very -- it's very frank,and we ought to take notice of the fact that(134)
我认为这是非常坦率的,我们应该注意以下事实:

the only reason we're aware of what's happenedis because of career public employees.(135)
我们知道发生了什么事的唯一原因是因为职业公职人员。

(CROSSTALK)
MARK SHIELDS: This is not -- these weren'tpolitical appointees.(136)
马克·希尔兹:不是-这些不是政治任命。

These are people who are nameless, faceless,who get attacked by every cheap shot in a(137)
这些人是无名的,不露面的人,他们在一次

political campaign.(138)
政治运动。

But at Foreign Service and at CIA and theDepartment of Justice -- the I.G. was a Department(139)
但是在外交部,中央情报局和司法部,IG是一个部门

of Justice 15-year attorney.(140)
司法部15年律师。

So, I mean, I think it's time to give somecredit to the people who did put their vow(141)
所以,我的意思是,我认为是时候向那些誓言的人们表示敬意了

of service above their own self-interest.(142)
超越自身利益的服务。

(CROSSTALK)
JUDY WOODRUFF: Excuse me.(143)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:对不起。

I do want to turn to the 2020 candidates hereand ask you quickly, number one, is Joe Biden(144)
我想谈谈2020年的候选人,然后迅速问您,第一名是乔·拜登(Joe Biden)

hurt by this?(145)
受此伤害?

What do you think?(146)
你怎么看?

RAMESH PONNURU: Well, Biden, I think, hadbeen sinking in the Democratic primaries,(147)
拉姆什·庞努鲁(RAMESH PONNURU):好吧,我认为拜登(Boden)一直在民主党初选中沉没,

and Senator Elizabeth Warren had been comingon pretty strong, even before this story really(148)
伊丽莎白·沃伦(Elizabeth Warren)参议员的表现还算不错,甚至在这个故事真的出现之前

blew up.(149)
炸了。

But I think that those trends have continuedsince that story has blown up.(150)
但是我认为,自从这个故事爆发以来,这些趋势一直在继续。

I don't know if the -- if Biden has been sufficientlyagile in making his case and being aggressive(151)
我不知道Biden是否足够灵活地提出自己的意见和积极进取

and saying, look, the president is afraidof me.(152)
然后说,总统害怕我。

I think he's started sound that note, butit's a little late.(153)
我认为他已经开始发出该音符了,但为时已晚。

MARK SHIELDS: OK.(154)
马克·谢尔德:好的。

Joe Biden ought to take a leaf out of thecampaign of Grover Cleveland, where he was(155)
乔·拜登(Joe Biden)应该从格罗弗·克利夫兰(Grover Cleveland)的竞选活动中脱身

nominated at that convention by General EdwardBragg, who said Cleveland had alienated the(156)
爱德华·布拉格将军提名该会议提名,他说克利夫兰已疏远了

Democratic organization, the corrupt Democraticorganization, and big money on the Republican(157)
民主组织,腐败的民主组织以及共和党的巨额资金

side.(158)
侧。

And he stood up, and he said, we love GroverCleveland for the enemies he has made.(159)
他站了起来,他说,我们爱着格罗弗·克利夫兰,因为他制造了敌人。

That's -- Joe -- Joe Biden ought to have the-- his campaign ought to have the wit and(160)
那是-乔-拜登(Joe Biden)应该-他的竞选活动应该有才智和

wisdom stand up and say, it's obvious thatthey're terrified.(161)
智慧站起来说,很显然他们很害怕。

They're so terrified of Joe Biden.(162)
他们对乔·拜登非常害怕。

They don't want to run against Joe Biden.(163)
他们不想与乔·拜登竞争。

And that's why Trump has been doing everything.(164)
这就是为什么特朗普一直在做所有事情。

And I think that's -- that's a natural wayto come back.(165)
我认为那是-回来的自然方法。

But I agree that he has slipped.(166)
但是我同意他已经溜走了。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, one thing that has -- newinformation that's come in, and that is how(167)
JUDY WOODRUFF:嗯,有一件事-不断涌入的新信息

much money the Democrats have been able toraise in the last quarter.(168)
民主党在上个季度已经筹集了很多钱。

Joe Biden came in fourth among all the Democrats.(169)
乔·拜登(Joe Biden)在所有民主党人中排名第四。

And I just want to say that I just learnedboth The New York Times and The Washington(170)
我只想说我刚刚学到了《纽约时报》和《华盛顿》

Post are reporting tonight that Bernie Sandersdid have a heart attack this week.(171)
邮报今晚报道伯尼·桑德斯(Bernie Sanders)本周确实得了心脏病。

We knew that there had been an incident ofsome sort.(172)
我们知道发生了某种事件。

He had two stents inserted in an artery.(173)
他在动脉中插入了两个支架。

MARK SHIELDS: Right.(174)
马克·谢尔德:对。

JUDY WOODRUFF: But we now know, the reportingis that he had a heart attack.(175)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫(JUDY WOODRUFF):但我们现在知道,有报道称他患有心脏病。

Having said that -- and we just showed thegraphic there, Ramesh -- he earned -- he picked(176)
话虽如此-我们刚刚在那儿展示了图形,Ramesh-他赚了-他选择了

up more than $25 million, Bernie Sanders did,better than all of the all -- of his competitors.(177)
伯尼·桑德斯(Bernie Sanders)的收入超过了2500万美元,比所有竞争对手都要好。

Elizabeth Warren after -- came in after him,and then Pete Buttigieg, and then Joe Biden.(178)
伊丽莎白·沃伦(Elizabeth Warren)–紧随其后,然后是皮特·布蒂吉格(Pete Buttigieg),然后是乔·拜登(Joe Biden)。

And we just showed our audience -- we're goingback and forth here, but we just showed them(179)
我们只是向观众展示了-我们在这里来回走动,但我们只是向他们展示了

President Trump's amount.(180)
特朗普总统的数额。

And it's $125 million, of course, overshadowingeverything that the Democrats have done.(181)
当然,这是1.25亿美元,盖过了民主党所做的一切。

But, Ramesh, what do we learn from these numbers,if anything, right now?(182)
但是,拉梅什,我们现在可以从这些数字中学到什么呢?

RAMESH PONNURU: Well, I think that they tendto confirm the trends that we were talking(183)
拉姆什·庞努鲁(RAMESH PONNURU):好的,我认为他们倾向于证实我们所谈论的趋势

about, that Warren has been rising, and thatBiden has been sinking.(184)
关于,沃伦一直在崛起,拜登一直在沉没。

Biden is closer in his fund-raising haul toAndrew Yang than he is to either Senator Sanders(185)
拜登与安德鲁·杨(Andrew Yang)的筹款距离比与参议员桑德斯(Sanders)距离更近

or to Senator Warren.(186)
或参议员沃伦。

We know that Senator Sanders has a strongfan base.(187)
我们知道桑德斯参议员拥有强大的支持者。

And I think one thing this fund-raising appealshows us is that he's not going to be fading(188)
而且我认为这种筹款呼吁向我们展示的一件事是他不会褪色

out.(189)
出来。

He's not going to be muscled out of the primariesin favor of some other candidate, but can(190)
他不会因为其他候选人而被淘汰出初选,但可以

stay in the long haul, if he wants.(191)
如果他愿意的话,留在长途中。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Mark, about 30 seconds.(192)
JUDY WOODRUFF:Mark,大约30秒。

What do you see in these -- in these numbers?(193)
您从这些数字中看到什么?

MARK SHIELDS: Money matters.(194)
马克·谢尔德:金钱很重要。

I mean, make no mistake about it.(195)
我的意思是,不要误会。

I think Warren -- Bernie, God bless him.(196)
我认为沃伦-伯尼,上帝保佑他。

His numbers in the polls have been slipping,but, I mean, he got $25 million.(197)
他在民意调查中的人数一直在下滑,但是,我的意思是,他得到了2500万美元。

They -- he has a committed donor base.(198)
他们-他有一个坚定的捐助者基础。

Elizabeth Warren's surge, both in the pollsand in money, is impressive.(199)
伊丽莎白·沃伦(Elizabeth Warren)的民意调查和金钱增长都令人印象深刻。

Make no mistake about it.(200)
毫无疑问。

I don't think this campaign is going to bewon or lost on money.(201)
我认为这项运动不会赢或输。

I really don't.(202)
我真的不知道

JUDY WOODRUFF: Well...(203)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:好吧...

MARK SHIELDS: Among the Democrats.(204)
马克·希尔兹:民主党人中。

JUDY WOODRUFF: One thing is for sure rightnow, that it's the president who's getting(205)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫(JUDY WOODRUFF):现在肯定有一件事,就是总统正在

most of the attention in this -- in this campaign.(206)
在此活动中-最关注的是

MARK SHIELDS: That's right.(207)
马克·希尔兹:没错。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Mark Shields, Ramesh Ponnuru,thank you.(208)
JUDY WOODRUFF:Mark Shields,Ramesh Ponnuru,谢谢。

MARK SHIELDS: Thank you.(209)
马克·希尔兹:谢谢。

RAMESH PONNURU: You're welcome.(210)
拉姆什·蓬努鲁:不客气。


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