Will Mike Pompeo succeed where Rex Tillerson failed?
2018-03-13 00:00:00


JUDY WOODRUFF: We return to the shakeup atthe top of the Trump administration with the(1)
JUDY WOODRUFF:我们回到了特朗普政府最高层的改组

firing of Secretary of State Rex Tillersonand the appointment of the current director(2)
国务卿雷克斯蒂勒森的解雇和现任董事的任命

of the CIA, Mike Pompeo, to replace him asAmerica's top diplomat.(3)
美国中央情报局的Mike Pompeo接替他为美国最高外交官。

We get three views now..(4)
我们现在得到三个视图..

Nicholas Burns served 27 years in government,much of it at the Department of State.(5)
尼古拉斯伯恩斯在政府任职27年,其中大部分在国务院工作。

He was U.S. ambassador to NATO and to Greece.(6)
他是美国驻北约和希腊大使。

He's now at Harvard University.(7)
他现在在哈佛大学。

David Ignatius is a foreign policy columnistat The Washington Post.(8)
大卫伊格内修斯是华盛顿邮报的外交政策专栏作家。

And David Shedd served as acting directorof the Defense Intelligence Agency during(9)
大卫谢德担任国防情报局代理总监

a 33-year government career.(10)
33年的政府生涯。

He is now a distinguished fellow at the HeritageFoundation, a Washington think tank.(11)
他现在是华盛顿智库传统基金会的杰出成员。

And, gentlemen, we welcome all three of youhere today.(12)
而且,先生们,我们今天在这里欢迎你们三位。

David Ignatius, I'm going to start with you.(13)
大卫伊格内修斯,我要从你开始。

Your reporting, what does it tell you aboutwhy the president made this decision?(14)
你的报道,它告诉你为什么总统做出这个决定?

DAVID IGNATIUS, Columnist, The WashingtonPost: I think president Trump has been uncomfortable(15)
DAVID IGNATIUS,华盛顿邮报专栏作家:我认为总统特朗普一直不舒服

with Secretary Tillerson for a year, reallysince soon after he took the job.(16)
与蒂尔森部长合作一年,真的是在他接任这个职位后不久。

Last November, Trump wanted to make a change,asked Mike Pompeo if he was ready to go to(17)
去年11月,特朗普想要改变,问Mike Pompeo他是否准备好去

State.(18)
州。

Pompeo said yes.(19)
Pompeo说是的。

The president held off, I think was counseledby Chief of Staff Kelly and others to wait(20)
总统休会了,我想凯利总理和其他人等待的建议

on that move.(21)
在那一步。

He did.(22)
他做到了。

But his discomfort continued.(23)
但他的不适继续。

Watching the public humiliation of Rex Tillersonhas been painful, I think, for the whole country.(24)
我认为,观察雷克斯蒂勒森的公众羞辱对整个国家来说都是痛苦的。

It was visible today in the pain of the resignationstatement that Tillerson made.(25)
今天在蒂勒森提出的辞职声明的痛苦中可以看到。

I think Trump finally decided that the timehad come to make a change as he headed into(26)
我认为特朗普最终决定,他进入的时候已经到了需要改变的时候了

the most important diplomatic encounter ofhis presidency probably, the face-to-face(27)
他担任总统职位时最重要的外交遇到的可能就是面对面

diplomacy with Kim Jong-un and North Korea.(28)
与金正恩和朝鲜外交。

He felt he wanted to have his own person atState, his own team behind him.(29)
他觉得他想要在国家有他自己的人,他自己的团队在他身后。

So I think the moment had come.(30)
所以我认为这一刻已经到来。

But the discomfort has been there for many,many months.(31)
但是,这种不舒服已经持续了很多月。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Nicholas Burns, how would youdescribe the State Department under Rex Tillerson?(32)
JUDY WOODRUFF:Nicholas Burns,你如何描述Rex Tillerson下的国务院?

NICHOLAS BURNS, Former U.S. Undersecretaryof State for Political Affairs: Demoralized,(33)
前美国副政治事务国务卿尼克拉斯伯恩斯:

I think the greatest crisis we have had in40 or 50 years, with 30 percent budget cuts(34)
我认为我们在40或50年内遇到的最大危机,预算削减了30%

by the Trump administration and SecretaryTillerson, the firing of some of our best(35)
由特朗普政府和蒂尔森部长发射我们最好的一些

senior officers early in the administration,an exodus of very good officers at all levels(36)
政府早期的高级官员,各级非常优秀的军官出逃

really, because no senior diplomats were appointedto senior positions around President Trump(37)
真的,因为没有高级外交官被任命为特朗普总统的高级职位

in the White House, the majority of our ambassadorshipsunfilled.(38)
在白宫,我们的大部分大使职位空缺。

No ambassador to Seoul in the middle of thiscrisis, no assistant secretary of state for(39)
在这场危机中没有驻汉大使,没有助理国务卿

East Asia.(40)
东亚。

So, diplomatic malpractice by Secretary Tillerson,I think that's part of his legacy, that he(41)
所以,蒂勒森部长的外交不当行为,我认为这是他遗留的一部分,他

mismanaged the State Department, our civiland career foreign service.(42)
国务院管理不善,我们的公民和职业外交服务管理不善。

And this is the great, important arm of ourdiplomacy, and yet these people feel that(43)
这是我们外交的重要组成部分,但这些人都有这种感觉

they have been excluded.(44)
他们被排除在外。

I would say I think that with -- secretarydesignate-Pompeo has an opportunity to rebuild(45)
我想说,我认为,由 - 秘书候选人 - 庞培有机会重建

the department, if he can convince PresidentTrump and the OMB director to put the money(46)
该部门如果能说服特朗普总统和OMB董事投入资金

forward.(47)
前锋。

He has an opportunity to win back people,but that's a tall order at this stage.(48)
他有机会赢回人们,但在现阶段这是一项艰巨的任务。

JUDY WOODRUFF: David Shedd, as somebody whohas watched American foreign policy for a(49)
JUDY WOODRUFF:大卫谢德,就像某个看过美国外交政策的人

long time, how do you see the record of RexTillerson as secretary?(50)
很长一段时间,你如何看待Rex Tillerson作为秘书的记录?

DAVID SHEDD, Former Acting Director, DefenseIntelligence Agency: I think that it's spotty,(51)
国防情报局前代理主任DAVID SHEDD:我认为它是多余的,

because of all the reasons that have alreadybeen described in terms of his inability to(52)
因为所有的原因已经被描述为他无能为力

really influence the president.(53)
真的影响了总统。

And I have seen in that -- in Director Pompeoa disproportionate amount of influence, then,(54)
我在那里看到 - 庞培导演的影响力过大,那么,

coming from the CIA at a very time where diplomacyshould actually be what we would be focusing(55)
来自中央情报局的时候,外交事实上应该成为我们关注的焦点

on.(56)
上。

JUDY WOODRUFF: What do you mean?(57)
JUDY WOODRUFF:你是什么意思?

DAVID SHEDD: I mean, the director and thepresident, I think, have hit it off from the(58)
DAVID SHEDD:我的意思是,导演和总裁,我认为,已经把它从电影中解放出来了

first day, and that relationship has actuallygrown deeper.(59)
第一天,这种关系实际上变得更深了。

He gives the president daily brief.(60)
他每天给总统简要介绍一下。

And I think the issues that are in alignmentwith the president's thinking about Iran,(61)
我认为与总统对伊朗思想相一致的问题,

about North Korea, about counterterrorismare really shaped by the CIA far more than(62)
关于朝鲜,关于反恐的事情真的是由中央情报局塑造的

Secretary Tillerson.(63)
蒂勒森秘书。

JUDY WOODRUFF: David Ignatius, there wereDemocrats out today saying damage has been(64)
JUDY WOODRUFF:David Ignatius,今天有民主党人表示损害已经发生

done to America's role in the world, to howAmerica is seen by other countries under the(65)
做到美国在世界上的角色,以及美国如何被其他国家看到

Trump-Tillerson 14 months.(66)
特朗普 - 蒂勒森14个月。

Do you agree?(67)
你同意吗?

DAVID IGNATIUS: I think there's no questionthat Trump has succeeded in his often self-proclaimed(68)
DAVID IGNATIUS:我认为特朗普在他经常自称的事业中取得成功毫无疑问

goal of disrupting, destabilizing the worldand traditional relationships, assumptions(69)
破坏,破坏世界和传统关系稳定的目标,假设

about American policy.(70)
关于美国的政策。

He's wanted to shake things up, and he has.(71)
他想要动摇,而且他已经。

I just was in Europe last weekend listeningto foreign policy discussion, and it's fair(72)
上周末我刚刚在欧洲听取外交政策讨论,这很公平

to say that our allies are concerned.(73)
说我们的盟友感到担忧。

They see America heading in different directions.(74)
他们看到美国走向不同的方向。

They want the United States to be a strongleader of the system that the U.S. created(75)
他们希望美国成为美国创建系统的强大领导者

after World War II, and they're concernedthat Trump is walking away from that.(76)
二战后,他们担心特朗普正在走开。

So, yes, I think there has been damage.(77)
所以,是的,我认为有损害。

I think it is important that any president,President Trump included, have a secretary(78)
我认为包括总统特朗普在内的任何总统都有秘书是非常重要的

of state who can speak confidently for thepresident, who everybody around the world(79)
谁可以自信地说话总统,谁在世界各地

knows he speaks on behalf of the presidentwith his voice, in effect.(80)
知道他实际上用他的声音代表总统发言。

Rex Tillerson couldn't do that.(81)
雷克斯蒂勒森不能这样做。

That was part of his problem.(82)
那是他问题的一部分。

In that sense, it's better to have a secretarywho can have a consistent, straightforward(83)
从这个意义上来说,最好有一位能够保持一致,直接的秘书

expression of policy, especially as we headinto these very delicate negotiations with(84)
政策的表达,特别是在我们与这些非常微妙的谈判进行谈判时

North Korea.(85)
北朝鲜。

JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Nick Burns, you were sayinga moment ago there's an opportunity for change(86)
JUDY WOODRUFF:而Nick Burns,你刚才说的是改变的机会

with Mike Pompeo coming in.(87)
Mike Pompeo进来。

How so?(88)
怎么会这样?

What kind of change should we look for?(89)
我们应该寻找什么样的改变?

NICHOLAS BURNS: Well, first, what David Ignatiusjust said, I think all of our recent secretaries(90)
尼古拉斯·伯恩斯:首先,大卫伊格内修斯刚刚说过的话,我想我们最近的秘书

of state would say that they were successfulwhen they had the support of the president.(91)
的国家会说他们在总统的支持下取得了成功。

They have to have the support of the president,or else you don't have credibility overseas.(92)
他们必须得到总统的支持,否则你在海外就没有信誉。

So, if Mike Pompeo is seen as someone in whomPresident Trump has great confidence, and(93)
所以,如果Mike Pompeo被视为总统特朗普充满信心的人,那么

if President Trump can be consistent in exhibitingthat confidence, and not undercutting Pompeo,(94)
如果特朗普总统能够一贯表现出这种信心,而不是贬低庞培,

the way he clearly undercut Secretary Tillerson,then I think Secretary Pompeo, secretary-designate(95)
他明显地削弱蒂尔森部长的方式,然后我认为候任秘书庞培

Pompeo, has a chance to be an influentialsecretary of state.(96)
庞培,有机会成为有影响力的国务卿。

And he will be more effective around the worldif people think he's speaking for President(97)
如果人们认为他在为总统发言,他将在世界各地更有效

Trump.(98)
王牌。

Two issues, Judy, to watch out for.(99)
两个问题,朱迪,要注意。

North Korea is by far the most important issueright now.(100)
朝鲜是目前最重要的问题。

Secretary-designate Pompeo, I hope there willbe speedy confirmation hearings.(101)
秘书候选人庞佩,我希望能够迅速确认听证会。

We need him out there, I hope, to go to Pyongyangbefore the summit meeting to see if the North(102)
我希望他能在首脑会议之前去平壤,看看北方

Koreans are really serious.(103)
韩国人真的很认真。

I support what President Trump is trying todo through diplomacy, turning toward it, but(104)
我支持特朗普总统试图通过外交努力实现的目标,但是

you have to have it well-prepared.(105)
你必须做好充分的准备。

And Pompeo has been a noted critic of theIran nuclear deal.(106)
Pompeo一直是伊朗核协议的着名评论家。

That could spell bad news for those of uswho believe that we should continue with the(107)
对于我们这些相信我们应该继续这样做的人来说,这可能会带来坏消息

Iran nuclear deal.(108)
伊朗核协议。

That will exacerbate our problems with Europeand the rest of the world.(109)
这将加剧我们与欧洲和世界其他地区之间的问题。

JUDY WOODRUFF: So, David Shedd, where do you-- how do you expect to see policy change(110)
JUDY WOODRUFF:那么,David Shedd,你在哪里 - 你如何看待政策变化

or be reconfigured in some way, whether it'sNorth Korea, Russia, Iran?(111)
或以某种方式重新配置,无论是朝鲜,俄罗斯还是伊朗?

DAVID SHEDD: I think that the ability of MikePompeo both now in his director of CIA role(112)
DAVID SHEDD:我认为Mike Pompeo现在担任CIA角色总监的能力

and now as secretary of state, should he beconfirmed, will give the president truth to(113)
现在担任国务卿,如果他得到确认,会给总统真相

power.(114)
功率。

And I think he will do that as a result ofthe relationship that he has.(115)
我想他会这样做,因为他有这种关系。

And so on those key countries that you mentionedand the topics that are associated with that,(116)
等你提到的那些关键国家以及与之相关的话题,

I think secretary Pompeo will tell the presidentwhen he's off the mark.(117)
我认为Pompeo秘书会在总统不在时告诉总统。

And I think it will be taken in the kind ofrelationship that they have built over the(118)
而且我认为这将会在他们建立在这种关系上

last 14 months.(119)
最近14个月。

JUDY WOODRUFF: What does that mean, say, forNorth Korea?(120)
JUDY WOODRUFF:这对于朝鲜来说意味着什么?

DAVID SHEDD: I think he will tell the presidentthat, ultimately, the eye on the ball is denuclearization(121)
DAVID SHEDD:我认为他会告诉总统,最终,球的目光是无核化

of the Korean Peninsula, and that nothingshort of that and with all that goes along(122)
朝鲜半岛的局势,这一切以及所有这一切都没有

with that in terms of having the capabilityto attest to the fact that Kim Jong-un is(123)
就有能力证明金正恩是这样的事实而言

denuclearizing the peninsula will be somethingthat he can drive President Trump to accept(124)
使半岛无核化将是他能推动总统特朗普接受的事情

as an outcome, and nothing short.(125)
作为一个结果,并没有什么不足。

JUDY WOODRUFF: David Ignatius, what wouldyou add to that with regard to North Korea?(126)
JUDY WOODRUFF:David Ignatius,你对朝鲜有什么补充?

And what about U.S. relations with Russia,where the president seems to resist wanting(127)
那么美国与俄罗斯的关系呢,总统似乎不愿意这样做

to give a full-throated criticism of Russia'srole and more?(128)
全面批评俄罗斯的角色和更多?

People are calling for him to condemn Russia'sactivities, not just in the election, but(129)
人们呼吁他谴责俄罗斯的活动,不仅仅是在选举中,而是

Syria and on and on down the list.(130)
叙利亚等等。

DAVID IGNATIUS: If Mike Pompeo is a trustedrepresentative, a trusted emissary for President(131)
DAVID IGNATIUS:如果Mike Pompeo是一位值得信赖的代表,是总统的可信使者

Trump, as was suggested a moment ago, theidea of going to Pyongyang to begin to set(132)
正如刚才所说,特朗普想要去平壤开始制定计划

the table for the conversations is crucial.(133)
谈话桌是至关重要的。

Pompeo is thoroughly read into the intelligenceabout the Korea situation, obviously.(134)
显然,Pompeo被彻底地读入了关于韩国情况的情报。

I just note, with Tillerson on the way out,the intellectual architect of this idea of(135)
我只是注意到,在Tillerson的出路上,这个想法的智力建筑师

engagement with North Korea, establishingthe conditions for negotiations, was Rex Tillerson's(136)
与朝鲜的接触,为谈判创造条件,是雷克斯蒂勒森的

work.(137)
工作。

He took it very seriously.(138)
他非常认真地对待它。

The president is now benefiting from the workthat was done.(139)
总统现在从已完成的工作中受益。

Russia is the biggest unasked question forthe administration.(140)
俄罗斯是政府最大的问题。

They haven't really gotten to the point ofthinking clearly about strategy.(141)
他们并没有真正清楚战略思想。

Again, that's something that Pompeo oughtto be able to drive, because the president(142)
同样,这是Pompeo应该能够驾驶的东西,因为总统

will listen to him.(143)
会听他的。

The president has to look Russian aggressionand mischief in the eye and begin to deal(144)
总统不得不看俄罗斯的侵略和恶作剧的眼睛,并开始处理

with it.(145)
用它。

Otherwise, we will just -- you know, as acountry, we are going to have an increasing(146)
否则,我们只会 - 作为一个国家,我们将会增加

problem.(147)
问题。

JUDY WOODRUFF: As you said, irony with regardto the approach, diplomatic approach to North(148)
JUDY WOODRUFF:正如你所说的那样,对于这种做法的反讽,对北方的外交方式

Korea.(149)
韩国。

But, Nick Burns, how would you measure a changein the U.S. approach to Russia at this point?(150)
但是,尼克伯恩斯,你现在如何衡量美国对俄罗斯的态度呢?

NICHOLAS BURNS: Well, there's an immediatequestion, Judy, probably, in the next 24 hours.(151)
NICHOLAS BURNS:呃,有一个直接的问题,Judy可能在接下来的24小时内。

The British prime minister will very likelytell the House of Commons tomorrow that it(152)
英国首相明天很可能会告诉下议院

was Russia that engineered this nerve agentattack in Salisbury, England.(153)
是俄罗斯在英国索尔兹伯里设计了这种神经毒剂攻击。

The United States has to stand squarely behindBritain.(154)
美国必须坚定地站在英国的后面。

Britain may go to the NATO alliance, not togo to war with Russia, but to exact further(155)
英国可能会去北约联盟,而不是去与俄罗斯开战,但要进一步确定

sanctions against Russia.(156)
对俄罗斯的制裁。

And the Trump administration, including thepresident this morning, very Delphic about(157)
特朗普政府,包括今天上午的总统,非常Delphic

what they were going to do in supporting Britain.(158)
他们将如何支持英国。

I think there is only one answer.(159)
我认为只有一个答案。

We have to be behind Britain and lead theNATO alliance to deter Putin from any further(160)
我们必须落后于英国,领导北约联盟以阻止普京的进一步发展

such attacks.(161)
这种攻击。

There is also, of course, the invasion ofour election in 2016, the conspiracy to undermine(162)
当然,2016年我们当选的入侵也是阴谋破坏的阴谋

our election.(163)
我们当选。

And one would hope that Mike Pompeo couldconvince President Trump, finally, that we(164)
而且有人会希望迈克庞波能够最终说服特朗普总统说我们

have to be critical of President Putin andraise our defenses for the 2018 and 2020 elections.(165)
必须批评普京总统,并提高我们对2018年和2020年选举的防范。

JUDY WOODRUFF: David Shedd, do you have aclear expectation on what we will see on Russia,(166)
JUDY WOODRUFF:大卫谢德,你对我们将在俄罗斯看到什么有明确的期望,

with regard to Russia?(167)
关于俄罗斯?

DAVID SHEDD: I think that Mike Pompeo, comingwith the knowledge that he has working at(168)
DAVID SHEDD:我认为Mike Pompeo知道他在工作

the CIA about the active measures that theRussians have been involved in for decades,(169)
美国中央情报局关于俄罗斯数十年来参与的积极措施,

and most recently using the means of technology,that, in fact, he will, as Nick suggests,(170)
并且最近使用了技术手段,事实上,他会像尼克所说的那样,

be able to reach the president with the highimpact of what those active measures are by(171)
能够通过这些积极措施所产生的巨大影响与总统取得联系

way of intermission into our political systemand undercutting democracy full-scale.(172)
我们的政治制度中断的方式和全面削弱民主的方式。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Does that mean taking a tougherline?(173)
JUDY WOODRUFF:这是否意味着采取更强硬的路线?

DAVID SHEDD: It absolutely means taking atougher line.(174)
DAVID SHEDD:这绝对意味着采取更强硬的路线。

It's recognizing that, perhaps in Italy, intheir elections, for example, calling that(175)
例如,它意识到,也许在意大利,他们的选举就是这样说的

out, calling it out in terms of the constantRussian efforts to divide and conquer NATO(176)
根据俄罗斯不断分化和征服北约的努力来说明这一点

by way of their activities, the support forthe Baltic countries.(177)
通过他们的活动,支持波罗的海国家。

And you can go on and on.(178)
你可以继续下去。

JUDY WOODRUFF: And just finally and quickly,David Ignatius, a word about the incoming(179)
JUDY WOODRUFF:最后很快,David Ignatius谈到了即将到来的消息

CIA director, or the designate, Gina Haspel.(180)
中央情报局局长,或指定的吉娜哈斯佩尔。

What do we know about her?(181)
我们对她有什么了解?

What should we expect?(182)
我们应该期待什么?

DAVID IGNATIUS: Gina Haspel is a career CIAoperations officer.(183)
DAVID IGNATIUS:吉娜哈斯佩尔是职业中央情报局的一名业务官员。

She's been in some important and sensitivepositions.(184)
她一直在一些重要而敏感的职位上。

One that's going to draw a lot of controversyis her role of running a black site for detention(185)
其中一个将引发很多争议的是她扮演黑人拘留场所的角色

interrogation in Thailand.(186)
在泰国审讯。

It's really important and worth noting thatshe will be, if confirmed, the first woman(187)
这是非常重要的,值得注意的是,如果证实,她将成为第一位女性

director of the CIA.(188)
中央情报局局长。

That's a big position.(189)
这是一个很大的位置。

It's a significant glass ceiling that's beenbroken.(190)
这是一个巨大的玻璃天花板已被打破。

She will have, I think, strong support ofthe work force, and probably support from(191)
我认为,她将拥有强大的劳动力支持,并可能从中得到支持

people in the Obama administration who knowher and worked with her.(192)
奥巴马政府中的人了解她并与她合作。

JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Nick Burns, 20 seconds.(193)
JUDY WOODRUFF:Nick Burns,20秒。

NICHOLAS BURNS: A very significant appointment.(194)
NICHOLAS BURNS:非常重要的任命。

What the president needs is a tight nationalsecurity team.(195)
总统需要的是一个严密的国家安全团队。

He has a star in Jim Mattis.(196)
他在Jim Mattis有明星。

If Mattis, Pompeo, Haspel can work together,then the president ought to listen to them,(197)
如果马蒂斯,庞培,哈斯佩尔能够一起工作,那么总统应该听取他们的意见,

because the president has not been an effectivepresident so far in his presidency with the(198)
因为在总统任内,总统迄今尚未成为有效的总统

rest of the world.(199)
世界其他地区。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, this was a day when eyeswere riveted on this president and the changes(200)
JUDY WOODRUFF:呃,这是一天,当这位总统和这些变化被人们关注的时候

he is capable of making.(201)
他有能力做出。

Nick Burns, David Ignatius, David Shedd, gentlemen,thank you all.(202)
Nick Burns,David Ignatius,David Shedd,先生们,谢谢大家。

NICHOLAS BURNS: Thank you, Judy.(203)
NICHOLAS BURNS:谢谢,朱迪。

DAVID IGNATIUS: Thank you.(204)
DAVID IGNATIUS:谢谢。

DAVID SHEDD: Thank you.(205)
DAVID SHEDD:谢谢。


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