Kasich: Trump's 'wrecking ball diplomacy' causing deep resentment among vital allies
2018-07-12 00:00:00


JUDY WOODRUFF: We return now to PresidentTrump's actions at the NATO summit and questions(1)
JUDY WOODRUFF:我们现在回到特朗普总统在北约峰会上的行动和问题

from within his own party about his temperamentin dealing with the foreign leaders there.(2)
从他自己的党内部谈起他在与那里的外国领导人打交道时的气质。

For more on that, I spoke a short time agowith John Kasich, the Republican governor(3)
关于这方面的更多信息,我不久前与共和党州长约翰卡西奇谈过

of Ohio and former presidential candidate.(4)
俄亥俄州和前总统候选人。

I began by asking Governor Kasich about whyhe's speaking out about the president's foreign(5)
我首先向州长Kasich询问他为什么要说出总统的外国人

policy.(6)
政策。

GOV.(7)
GOV。

JOHN KASICH (R), Ohio: Look, my concern is,this alliance that we have, the relationships(8)
JOHN KASICH(R),俄亥俄州:看,我担心的是,我们拥有的联盟,关系

that we have had that emerged after WorldWar II, and many of the unilateral actions(9)
我们在第二次世界大战后出现了这种情况,以及许多单方面的行动

that we have taken, whether it's withdrawingfrom the Paris accord, the imposition of tariffs(10)
我们已采取的,无论是退出巴黎协议,是否征收关税

based on what I think are flimsy grounds,the unilateral withdrawal from the Iran agreement,(11)
基于我认为是脆弱的理由,单方面退出伊朗协议,

withdrawal TPP, the disaster at G7, I seethe fraying of a relationship that has kept(12)
退出TPP,G7的灾难,我看到了一直保持着的关系

the peace for 70 years somewhat at risk(13)
70年的和平有些危险

And I am very concerned about it.(14)
而且我非常关心它。

I didn't come to criticize him or level personalattacks.(15)
我没有来批评他或进行人身攻击。

I am worried about the direction, the strengthof the alliance, because it's important we(16)
我担心联盟的方向和力量,因为这对我们很重要

are a strong team.(17)
是一支强大的团队。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, today, this morning,in Brussels, before he left, the president(18)
JUDY WOODRUFF:今天早上,在布鲁塞尔离开之前,总统

said, we made tremendous progress at thismeeting.(19)
说,我们在这次会议上取得了巨大进步。

He talked about how the U.S. is committedto a strong NATO.(20)
他谈到了美国如何致力于建立强大的北约。

So I guess my question is, even if he kicksup a lot of dust, which his supporters acknowledge,(21)
所以我想我的问题是,即使他踢了很多灰尘,他的支持者都承认,

if, in the end, there's results, if the allies,for example, are putting more money into defense(22)
例如,如果盟友为防守投入更多资金,最终会有结果

-- he's taking credit for it -- what is wrongwith that?(23)
- 他对此赞不绝口 - 这有什么不对?

GOV.(24)
GOV。

JOHN KASICH: Well, first of all, I think there'sa wrecking ball diplomacy here, that we go(25)
JOHN KASICH:首先,我认为这里有一个破坏球的外交,我们走了

in, we stir everything up.(26)
在,我们搅拌一切。

And you have got to remember that the leadersof these countries, they represent their nations,(27)
你必须记住这些国家的领导人,他们代表他们的国家,

and they also are leaders of their nation.(28)
他们也是国家的领导者。

And when we start talking about, is Germanyunder the influence of Russia, or when we(29)
当我们开始谈论时,德国是受俄罗斯的影响还是当我们

impose tariffs on these countries on the basisof national security grounds, it creates a(30)
在国家安全的基础上对这些国家征收关税,它创造了一个

disharmony.(31)
不和谐。

Now, in terms of the 2 percent, they havecommitted to this four years ago.(32)
现在,就2%而言,他们已经承诺在四年前实现这一目标。

And I hope they have accelerated it.(33)
我希望他们加速了它。

Look, this has been -- so many presidentsand congresses have asked them to do more,(34)
看,这已经是 - 很多总统和代表大会都要求他们做得更多,

and I'm glad the president raised it.(35)
总统提出来,我很高兴。

But I don't think he is raising it in theright way.(36)
但我不认为他是以正确的方式提高它。

It's not in -- using the diplomacy that Ithink strengthens us, but causes deep resentment.(37)
它不是 - 使用我认为加强我们的外交,但引起了深深的怨恨。

And look at some of the comments of peoplewho weren't in those meetings.(38)
并查看那些不在那些会议中的人的一些评论。

The resentment is growing.(39)
怨恨越来越多。

And there is a question of trust.(40)
还有一个信任问题。

That's a problem.(41)
那是个问题。

(CROSSTALK)
JUDY WOODRUFF: Excuse me.(42)
JUDY WOODRUFF:对不起。

What are you worried is going to happen?(43)
你担心什么会发生?

GOV.(44)
GOV。

JOHN KASICH: Well, I'm not worried anythingis going to happen today.(45)
JOHN KASICH:嗯,我并不担心今天会发生什么。

And I hope that this fraying relationshipwill be repaired.(46)
我希望这种破旧的关系能得到修复。

But words matter.(47)
但言语很重要。

Approaches matter.(48)
方法很重要。

And so getting a little bit more spendingout of them, that is a good thing.(49)
因此,从他们身上花费更多,这是一件好事。

But what price have you paid in terms of disunityover the long run?(50)
但是从长远来看,你在不团结方面付出的代价是多少?

And, Judy, this is not -- this is -- I don'teven want to have to do this.(51)
而且,朱迪,这不是 - 这是 - 我甚至不想这样做。

I don't want to have to say this, but somebody'sgot to say these things.(52)
我不想这么说,但是有人必须说出这些话。

Somebody has to speak out on these tariffs,which, frankly, there is flimsy excuses for(53)
有人不得不就这些关税发表意见,坦率地说,这些关税有一些脆弱的借口

being able to move forward on them.(54)
能够在他们身上前进。

The America alone philosophy, I don't thinkit's good for us.(55)
仅限美国哲学,我认为这对我们没有好处。

Now, look, the president was elected.(56)
现在,看,总统当选。

I wasn't.(57)
我不是。

I'm not doing this to advance myself, onlyto point out there's a difference here with(58)
我不是为了推进自己,而是指出这里有所不同

some people and the president.(59)
有些人和总统。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Why don't you think other Republicanswho share your views are speaking out?(60)
JUDY WOODRUFF:你为什么不认为其他分享你观点的共和党人在说出来?

GOV.(61)
GOV。

JOHN KASICH: Well, we actually heard a coupleof peeps out of the United States Senate.(62)
JOHN KASICH:嗯,我们实际上听到了美国参议院的一些偷看声。

They actually passed a nonbinding resolutionoverwhelmingly on the importance of NATO.(63)
他们实际上通过了一项非约束性决议,绝大多数都是关于北约的重要性。

They have also passed a nonbinding resolutionon trade, registering their deep disagreement(64)
他们还通过了一项关于贸易的非约束性决议,表达了他们的深刻分歧

with the president.(65)
与总统。

So they're beginning to do it.(66)
所以他们开始这么做了。

In terms of -- you know, there is this tribaleffect.(67)
就你所知,有这种部落效应。

It was there when Obama was president.(68)
奥巴马担任总统时就在那里。

We're seeing it now with President Trump.(69)
我们现在正与特朗普总统见面。

And you respect the office, but you don'thave to kowtow.(70)
你尊重办公室,但你不必磕头。

You don't have to say, I don't have any reasonfor being here.(71)
你不必说,我没有任何理由在这里。

JUDY WOODRUFF: But you think that's what they'redoing?(72)
JUDY WOODRUFF:但你认为他们正在做什么?

They're kowtowing?(73)
他们磕头?

GOV.(74)
GOV。

JOHN KASICH: I think they have been, yes.(75)
JOHN KASICH:我认为他们一直都是,是的。

I think maybe they're coming out of this stuporthat they have been in up there.(76)
我想也许他们已经走出这种昏迷,他们已经在那里。

They don't say boo about anything.(77)
他们没有说任何事情的嘘声。

And if you -- I hear -- I'm not here all thetime, but if you talk to them privately, they(78)
如果你 - 我听到 - 我不是一直在这里,但如果你私下和他们谈话,他们

sort of have a different message in privatethan they have in public.(79)
有些私人消息与公开消息不同。

And that doesn't mean they have to have awar with the president.(80)
这并不意味着他们必须与总统发生战争。

I don't want to have a fight with the president.(81)
我不想和总统打架。

But when there are policy differences -- andI'm not interested in the personal character(82)
但是当存在政策差异时 - 我对个人角色不感兴趣

attacks on the president.(83)
袭击总统。

I don't do that.(84)
我不这样做。

I'm not going to do it.(85)
我不打算这样做。

But there are dramatic policy differencesthat I think undermine our ability to have(86)
但是,我认为存在戏剧性的政策差异会削弱我们的能力

a team of nations that support the valuesthat we have believed in for 70 years.(87)
一支支持我们已相信70年的价值观的国家团队。

JUDY WOODRUFF: One more foreign policy question.(88)
JUDY WOODRUFF:还有一个外交政策问题。

The president, as you know, meets on Mondaywith Vladimir Putin.(89)
如你所知,总统周一与弗拉基米尔·普京举行会谈。

They're going to have a one-on-one meeting.(90)
他们将要进行一对一的会谈。

He's said in the last few days that this isgoing to be easier than his meetings with(91)
他在最近几天说,这比他的会议要容易

the European allies.(92)
欧洲盟国。

Nancy Pelosi, the House minority leader, saidtoday that the -- she said she wants to know(93)
众议院少数党领袖南希佩洛西今天表示 - 她说她想知道

what the Russians have on Donald Trump -- quote-- "politically, financially and personally."(94)
俄罗斯人对唐纳德特朗普的看法 - 引用 - “政治上,财政上和个人上”。

Do you have questions about that?(95)
你对此有疑问吗?

GOV.(96)
GOV。

JOHN KASICH: No, that's not what enters intomy mind.(97)
JOHN KASICH:不,这不是我想到的。

What enters into my mind are concerns whenDonald Trump says that perhaps if Putin asks(98)
当唐纳德特朗普说或许普京问道时,我想到了什么

us to call off military exercises in the Baltics,you know, maybe we will do it, or, you know,(99)
我们在波罗的海地区取消军事演习,你知道,也许我们会这样做,或者你知道,

not being tough enough with him on the waythey have disrupted elections, not only ours,(100)
在他们扰乱选举的方式上不够强硬,不仅是我们的,

but around the world.(101)
但在世界各地。

And don't be saying that people in Crimeaspeak Russian, so maybe, you know, that annexation(102)
并且不要说克里米亚的人说俄语,所以也许,你知道,吞并

wasn't illegal.(103)
不是非法的。

I mean, those are things I disagree with.(104)
我的意思是,这些是我不同意的事情。

But the conversation that he will have atthis summit is very important, even though(105)
但即便如此,他在本次峰会上的谈话也非常重要

we fundamentally disagree with much of whatRussia stands for today.(106)
我们从根本上不同意俄罗斯今天的立场。

But we need to have additional arms controltalks and agreements to begin to limit our(107)
但我们需要进行额外的军备控制谈判和协议,以开始限制我们的

arsenals.(108)
库。

Without doing that, I think it poses risksfor the world.(109)
没有这样做,我认为它给世界带来了风险。

But let's not lose sight of who we're dealingwith.(110)
但是,我们不要忘记我们正在与谁打交道。

George Bush went and said he looked into Putin'seyes and looked all the way into his soul.(111)
乔治布什去了,说他看着普京的眼睛,一直看着他的灵魂。

I don't know what side of Putin he was lookingat that day.(112)
我不知道那天他正在看普京的哪一方。

You have got to be really tough-minded whenit comes to dealing with an adversary who(113)
在与对手打交道时,你必须非常强硬

used to be such an important KGB official.(114)
曾经是克格勃这样重要的官员。

JUDY WOODRUFF: The administration and theimmigration policy.(115)
JUDY WOODRUFF:行政和移民政策。

GOV.(116)
GOV。

JOHN KASICH: Yes.(117)
JOHN KASICH:是的。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Separating families at theborder, there has been so much focus on this(118)
JUDY WOODRUFF:在边境分离家庭,人们对此非常关注

the last few weeks.(119)
过去几周。

The administration announced late last nightthat they are going to now reunite all children(120)
政府昨晚宣布,他们现在要让所有的孩子团聚

under the age of 5 with their parents, withthe exception of something like 46 who still(121)
与父母一起5岁以下,但46岁以下的人除外

have -- there are still some issues.(122)
有 - 还有一些问题。

The president is saying people should stayaway from the border, whether they have children(123)
总统说人们应该远离边境,不管他们是否有孩子

or not.(124)
或不。

They don't -- they're not welcome in thiscountry unless they're here illegally.(125)
他们没有 - 除非他们在这里非法,否则他们不会受到欢迎。

He says, basically, what my opponents wantis, they just want open borders, they want(126)
他说,基本上,我的对手想要的是,他们只想要开放的边界,他们想要的

everybody to be able to come in.(127)
每个人都能进来。

(CROSSTALK)
GOV.(128)
GOV。

JOHN KASICH: Well, I think it's irresponsiblefor the Democrats to say we ought to abolish(129)
约翰·卡西奇:嗯,我认为民主党人说我们应该废除这是不负责任的

ICE, that we ought to have open borders.(130)
ICE,我们应该有开放的边界。

I don't know.(131)
我不知道。

They're way out in left -- they're beyondleft field.(132)
他们在左边出路 - 他们超越了左边的领域。

I don't even know where they are.(133)
我甚至不知道他们在哪里。

However, the idea that we would separate familiesat the border, to me, is not an American value.(134)
然而,我们将边境家庭与我分开的想法并不符合美国人的价值观。

I mean, when we see this, everybody came outagainst it.(135)
我的意思是,当我们看到这一点时,每个人都反对它。

The administration has now reversed its policy.(136)
政府现在已经改变了政策。

Judy, of course we have to have strong borders,but we also need to have an effective policy(137)
朱迪,当然我们必须有强大的边界,但我们也需要有一个有效的政策

that deals with our neighborhood.(138)
这涉及我们的邻居。

If you're in Guatemala -- for people thatwatch this show, you're in Guatemala, you're(139)
如果你在危地马拉 - 对于那些观看这个节目的人来说,你在危地马拉,你就是

a mom, and your daughter is being threatenedwith rape or your son being murdered, of course(140)
当然,妈妈和你的女儿受到强奸或你的儿子被谋杀的威胁

you're going to get the heck out of whereyou live and you're going to come to the United(141)
你将会离开你住的地方,然后你会来到美国

States and seek asylum.(142)
国家寻求庇护。

So we need to have more asylum judges.(143)
所以我们需要有更多的庇护法官。

We need to have facilities where familiescan be housed together.(144)
我们需要有家庭可以安置在一起的设施。

You know, give us your tired and your pooris part of what that Statue of Liberty is(145)
你知道,给你我们累了,你的穷人是自由女神像的一部分

about.(146)
关于。

So, I believe an economic and security policythat would be directed at Guatemala, El Salvador,(147)
因此,我认为将针对萨尔瓦多危地马拉的经济和安全政策,

Honduras is something that we should thinkabout, because all these problems can't be(148)
洪都拉斯是我们应该考虑的事情,因为所有这些问题都不可能

solved at the border.(149)
在边境解决了。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Finally, Governor, you saythat you haven't decided whether you are going(150)
JUDY WOODRUFF:最后,州长,你说你还没有决定你是否要去

to run for president.(151)
竞选总统。

(CROSSTALK)
GOV.(152)
GOV。

JOHN KASICH: Look, I wouldn't be on if youweren't asking me.(153)
JOHN KASICH:看,如果你没有问我,我不会参加。

I don't know what I'm going to do, Judy.(154)
我不知道我要做什么,朱迪。

JUDY WOODRUFF: But you're -- you're writing-- you're writing opinion pieces.(155)
JUDY WOODRUFF:但是你 - 你正在写作 - 你正在撰写评论文章。

GOV.(156)
GOV。

JOHN KASICH: Yes.(157)
JOHN KASICH:是的。

JUDY WOODRUFF: You're traveling.(158)
JUDY WOODRUFF:你在旅行。

You're going to be speaking in New Hampshirethe week after the midterm elections.(159)
在中期选举后的一周,你将在新罕布什尔州发表讲话。

GOV.(160)
GOV。

JOHN KASICH: Sure.(161)
JOHN KASICH:当然。

Great opportunity to do that.(162)
这样做的好机会。

JUDY WOODRUFF: What would it take for younot to run for president?(163)
JUDY WOODRUFF:你不竞选总统需要什么?

GOV.(164)
GOV。

JOHN KASICH: Here's what we know.(165)
JOHN KASICH:这就是我们所知道的。

It's very hard to predict what's going tohappen in the next five minutes in politics(166)
很难预测未来五分钟政治会发生什么

today than over the period of the next month.(167)
今天比下个月的时期。

So we will see what happens.(168)
所以我们会看到会发生什么。

And I will also tell you that my future -- Imean, I control my future, to some degree,(169)
而且我也会告诉你我的未来 - 我的意思是,我在某种程度上控制着自己的未来,

but my future is, to some degree, also inthe hands of the lord.(170)
但在某种程度上,我的未来也掌握在主的手中。

And I don't know where he's going to directme.(171)
而且我不知道他会指导我。

We will see.(172)
我们会看到。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, we will keep talkingto you.(173)
JUDY WOODRUFF:嗯,我们会继续跟你说话。

GOV.(174)
GOV。

JOHN KASICH: I hope so.(175)
JOHN KASICH:我希望如此。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Governor John Kasich of Ohio,thank you.(176)
JUDY WOODRUFF:俄亥俄州州长John Kasich,谢谢。

GOV.(177)
GOV。

JOHN KASICH: Thank you, Judy.(178)
JOHN KASICH:谢谢Judy。


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