Former top U.S. military official in Mideast on the outlook for peace in Syria
2019-09-12 00:00:00


AMNA NAWAZ: The United States has been atwar in Afghanistan for 18 years, and the American(1)
AMNA NAWAZ:美国已在阿富汗战争了18年,而美国则在战争中

role in Syria continues to evolve, with noclear end in sight.(2)
在叙利亚的作用继续发展,看不到明显的结局。

Until recently, retired General Joseph Voteloversaw those conflicts and others as head(3)
直到最近,退休的约瑟夫·沃特将军一直在监督这些冲突和其他冲突

of the U.S. military's Middle East operations.(4)
美国军方的中东业务。

Stephanie Sy speaks with Votel.(5)
Stephanie Sy与Votel交谈。

But, first, she has an update on the conflictin Syria.(6)
但是,首先,她了解叙利亚冲突的最新情况。

STEPHANIE SY: From the air and on the ground,up to three million people living in Northern(7)
史蒂芬妮SY:在空中和地面上,居住在北方的人口高达300万

Syria are being boxed in, with nowhere togo.(8)
叙利亚正陷入困境,无处可去。

President Bashar al-Assad's forces are continuingtheir onslaught in northwest Idlib province,(9)
巴沙尔·阿萨德总统的部队继续在伊德利卜省西北部进行猛攻,

the last rebel stronghold.(10)
最后一个反叛者据点。

The cease-fire announced by Assad and hisRussian backers at the end of August has been(11)
阿萨德和他的俄罗斯支持者在8月底宣布停火

all but broken, according to Idlib residentand civilian activist Jomah Alqasem.(12)
据Idlib居民和平民活动家Jomah Alqasem说,几乎没有破碎。

JOMAH ALQASEM, Humanitarian Worker: The airstrikesin the recent offensive are more concentrated(13)
JOMAH ALQASEM,人道主义工作者:最近进攻中的空袭更为集中

towards the rebel front lines.(14)
朝反叛前线。

This is the burned by land -- or what theycall the burned land strategy that the Syrian(15)
这是被土地烧毁 - 或者他们所谓的叙利亚荒地战略

regime, Syrian army and the Russian backupof the air is demolishing all this architecture.(16)
政权,叙利亚军队和俄罗斯的空中支援正在摧毁所有这些建筑。

STEPHANIE SY: While Idlib burns, hundredsof thousands of residents are fleeing toward(17)
STEPHANIE SY:当Idlib烧伤时,成千上万的居民正在逃往

Turkey, joining a bottleneck of refugees fromother parts of Syria, packed into overcrowded(18)
土耳其加入了来自叙利亚其他地区的难民瓶颈,人满为患

camps like al-Hol.(19)
像霍尔这样的营地。

The camps for the desperately displaced arefertile ground for extremists looking for(20)
极度流离失所的难民营是极端主义者寻找的肥沃土壤

recruits.(21)
新兵。

Camps across the border are also at theirbreaking point.(22)
越过边界的营地也处于突破点。

Turkey is already host to 3.6 million refugees,having made a deal with Europe to keep them(23)
土耳其已经收容了360万难民,并与欧洲达成协议以保留他们

from migrating further.(24)
从进一步迁移。

Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdogan isnow threatening to release the refugees unless(25)
土耳其总统雷杰普·塔伊普·埃尔多安现在威胁要释放难民,除非

Europe provides more aid.(26)
欧洲提供更多援助。

RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN, Turkish President (throughtranslator): This either happens, or we will(27)
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN,土耳其总统(通过翻译):这种情况要么发生,要么我们会发生

have to open the gates.(28)
必须打开大门。

Either you will provide support, or, excuseus, but we can only tolerate this so much.(29)
你要么提供支持,要么原谅我们,但我们只能容忍这么多。

Are we going to carry this weight alone?(30)
我们要独自承受这个重量吗?

STEPHANIE SY: Turkey is also poised for itsown conflict in Northeast Syria, against the(31)
史蒂芬妮SY:土耳其也准备好应对东北叙利亚的冲突

very forces that have helped the U.S. beatback ISIS.(32)
非常有助于美国击退伊斯兰国的力量。

The Syrian Kurds are viewed by Turkey as terrorists,threatening to carve out their own nation.(33)
土耳其将叙利亚库尔德人视为恐怖分子,威胁要开辟自己的国家。

Caught in a crosscurrent of dueling interests,the U.S. agreed to help clear the northeastern(34)
在美国利益冲突中,美国同意帮助清除东北地区

border of Syrian Kurdish outposts, and beginpatrolling the border, along with Turkish(35)
叙利亚库尔德前哨的边界,并开始与土耳其一起巡逻边境

forces.(36)
军队。

But Turkey's foreign minister says the U.S.isn't doing enough.(37)
但土耳其外交部长表示美国做得不够。

MEVLUT CAVUSOGLU, Turkish Foreign Minister(through translator): There are some joint(38)
MEVLUT CAVUSOGLU,土耳其外交部长(通过翻译):有一些联合

patrols, but other than that, the steps thathave been taken, or the steps that are said(39)
巡逻,但除此之外,已采取的步骤,或所说的步骤

to be taken, are cosmetic steps.(40)
化妆步骤。

We are seeing that the United States wantto enter another stalling process.(41)
我们看到美国想要进入另一个拖延过程。

They are trying to get Turkey accustomed tothis stalling process.(42)
他们试图让土耳其习惯于这种拖延过程。

But our stance on this matter is very clear.(43)
但我们对这个问题的立场非常明确。

STEPHANIE SY: The multifront war in Syriahas divided allies and diffused attention.(44)
史蒂芬妮SY:叙利亚的多边战争已经分裂了盟友和分散注意力。

U.N. Human Rights Commissioner Michelle Bacheleturged the world to refocus.(45)
联合国人权专员米歇尔巴切莱特敦促世界重新聚焦。

MICHELLE BACHELET, U.N. Human Rights Commissioner:These figures are appalling, shameful, and(46)
MICHELLE BACHELET,联合国人权专员:这些数字令人震惊,可耻,而且

deeply tragic.(47)
非常悲惨。

In a bid to take control of territories, thereappears to be little concern about taking(48)
为了控制领土,似乎没什么可担心的

civilian lives.(49)
平民生活。

Any further escalation will only result infurther loss of life and displacement of civilians(50)
任何进一步的升级只会导致进一步的生命损失和平民流离失所

who have already been forced to repeatedlyflee a situation of dire humanitarian conditions.(51)
谁已经被迫多次逃离严峻的人道主义状况。

So I appeal to all parties in the conflictand to those many powerful states with influence(52)
因此,我呼吁冲突各方以及那些有影响力的强大国家

to put aside political differences and haltthe carnage.(53)
抛开政治分歧,制止大屠杀。

STEPHANIE SY: Meanwhile, back in Idlib, JomahAlqasem says his fellow countrymen, women(54)
STEPHANIE SY:同时,回到Idlib,Jomah Alqasem说他的同胞,女人

and children are losing hope.(55)
孩子们正在失去希望。

JOMAH ALQASEM: All of these humanitarian actorsthat we have seen actively being involved(56)
JOMAH ALQASEM:我们所看到的所有这些人道主义行动者都积极参与其中

in the Syria crisis are shrinking and decreasingthe fund that is being allocated to the Syrian(57)
在叙利亚,危机正在缩小并减少分配给叙利亚的资金

response.(58)
响应。

What we are seeing is the worst humanitariancrisis, let's say, or part of the Syrian crisis(59)
我们所看到的是最严重的人道主义危机,比如叙利亚危机或部分叙利亚危机

that has been chronically occurring the lastnine years.(60)
这是过去九年中长期发生的事情。

But, unfortunately, this is the weakest response.(61)
但不幸的是,这是最弱的回应。

STEPHANIE SY: According to The New York Times,the U.S. is boosting its military response(62)
史蒂芬妮:据“纽约时报”报道,美国正在加强其军事反应

in Northeast Syria.(63)
在叙利亚东北部。

It's sending 150 additional forces to monitorthe border with Turkey.(64)
它还派出150名额外部队监视与土耳其的边界。

Joining me now to discuss this conflict inSyria and on other fronts is retired General(65)
现在和我一起讨论叙利亚和其他战线上的这场冲突是退役将军

Joseph Votel.(66)
约瑟夫沃特尔。

Until April, he led U.S. Central Command,which oversees military operations in the(67)
直到4月,他领导了美国中央司令部,负责监督美国中央司令部的军事行动

Middle East.(68)
中东。

He is now a fellow at the Middle East Institute.(69)
他现在是中东研究所的研究员。

General Votel, it's a pleasure to have youwith us here at the "NewsHour."(70)
将军Votel,很高兴在“NewsHour”与您一起来到这里。

Is there a solution in Syria?(71)
叙利亚有解决方案吗?

GEN.(72)
GEN。

JOSEPH VOTEL (RET.), Former Commander, U.S.Central Command: Well, certainly, there is.(73)
美国中央司令部前指挥官JOSEPH VOTEL(RET。):当然,有。

I mean, the solution is, we have to get toa political settlement of the situation here.(74)
我的意思是,解决方案是,我们必须在这里达成政治解决方案。

Military operations can only do so much, but,ultimately, the international community has(75)
军事行动只能这么做,但最终国际社会也有

got to come together, hopefully under thesupport of the United Nations, to move forward(76)
希望在联合国的支持下走到一起,向前迈进

with a political solution here in Syria.(77)
在叙利亚有一个政治解决方案。

STEPHANIE SY: But what role does the U.S.play?(78)
史蒂芬妮SY:但是美国扮演什么角色?

The U.S. really isn't involved in a placelike Idlib.(79)
美国真的没有参与像Idlib这样的地方。

It really isn't involved in the Syrian civilwar.(80)
它确实没有参与叙利亚内战。

Beyond it wanting to contain ISIS, what roleshould the administration be playing in Syria(81)
除了想要遏制伊斯兰国之外,政府应该在叙利亚发挥什么样的作用

right now?(82)
马上?

GEN.(83)
GEN。

JOSEPH VOTEL: Well, I think the role the UnitedStates should be playing certainly is that(84)
JOSEPH VOTEL:嗯,我认为美国应该扮演的角色当然是这样的

we have led a 79-member coalition to addressthe threat of ISIS.(85)
我们领导了一个由79名成员组成的联盟,以解决伊斯兰国的威胁。

And we have done that very effectively.(86)
我们非常有效地完成了这项工作。

And we have used our partners on the groundto do that.(87)
我们已经利用我们在当地的合作伙伴来做到这一点。

And now, in places like North and East Syria,we are working with our partners to help stabilize(88)
而现在,在叙利亚北部和东部等地,我们正在与我们的合作伙伴一起帮助稳定

these areas so we can create platform thatwould allow for -- allow for the international(89)
这些领域,所以我们可以创建允许的平台 - 允许国际

community to move forward.(90)
社区向前发展。

STEPHANIE SY: You oversaw the withdrawal ofmost U.S. troops from Syria last year, after(91)
史蒂芬妮SY:去年​​,你监督了大部分美国军队从叙利亚撤军

it was ordered by President Trump via Twitter.(92)
它是由特朗普总统通过Twitter订购的。

You were not informed or consulted beforethat move.(93)
在此举动之前,您未获得通知或咨询。

Had you been consulted, what would you havesaid?(94)
如果你被咨询过,你会说什么?

GEN.(95)
GEN。

JOSEPH VOTEL: Well, I don't think that wouldhave been -- as I have said, I don't -- in(96)
JOSEPH VOTEL:嗯,我认为不会 - 就像我说的那样,我没有 - 在

congressional testimony -- I don't think thatwould have been my recommendation at the time.(97)
国会作证 - 我不认为那时我的推荐。

I think it's important to remember that, inDecember, at the time when that announcement(98)
我认为重要的是要记住,在12月,那个宣布的时候

was made, we were still very engaged in amilitary campaign down in the Middle Euphrates(99)
我们还是参与了幼发拉底河中部的军事行动

Valley.(100)
谷。

We had not yet completed the defeat of thecaliphate.(101)
我们还没有完成哈里发的失败。

And so we needed to finish that.(102)
所以我们需要完成它。

So it wouldn't have been my advice to makethat decision at that particular juncture.(103)
因此,在那个特定时刻做出决定不是我的建议。

STEPHANIE SY: Defense Secretary Jim Mattisactually resigned over that decision.(104)
史蒂芬妮SY:国防部长吉姆马蒂斯实际上已经因为这个决定而辞职了。

Six months since you have retired from CentralCommand, are you seeing ramifications of that(105)
你从中央司令部退役六个月后,你是否看到了这种情况

troop withdrawal?(106)
撤军?

And do you think ISIS is potentially resurgentstill in Syria?(107)
你认为伊斯兰国在叙利亚还有可能复苏吗?

GEN.(108)
GEN。

JOSEPH VOTEL: Yes, I think that's an excellentquestion.(109)
JOSEPH VOTEL:是的,我认为这是一个很好的问题。

I think we have always been concerned aboutthe resurgence of ISIS.(110)
我想我们一直关注伊斯兰国的复兴。

It's important to recognize that what we accomplishedwas the defeat of the physical caliphate,(111)
重要的是要认识到我们所取得的成就是物理哈里发的失败,

the state-like entity that ISIS tried to impose,and actually did impose for a long period(112)
ISIS试图施加的国家级实体,实际上确实施加了很长时间

of time, which we, I think, completely dismantled.(113)
时间,我认为,我们完全拆除了。

But that doesn't mean all the fighters havegone away.(114)
但这并不意味着所有的战士都已经离开了。

What we have learned over time with thesetypes of organizations is that we do have(115)
随着时间的推移,我们与这些类型的组织学到的是我们确实拥有的

to keep pressure on them.(116)
对他们施加压力

They have gone to ground.(117)
他们已经开始了。

They have gone to small cells.(118)
他们去了小牢房。

So we have to stay after them in terms ofthat.(119)
所以我们必须坚持到底。

We have known that that's going to be a requirement.(120)
我们已经知道这将是一项要求。

And that's a key aspect of, I think, whatwe're doing now with our partners on the ground.(121)
我认为,这是我们与当地合作伙伴共同努力的一个关键方面。

STEPHANIE SY: Let's talk about Afghanistan,troops there also under your command, troops(122)
史蒂芬妮SY:让我们谈谈阿富汗,那里的部队也在你的指挥下,部队

there also promised a withdrawal.(123)
还承诺退出。

President Trump called off secret talks hehad planned with the Taliban and the Afghan(124)
特朗普总统取消了他曾计划与塔利班和阿富汗进行的秘密会谈

government last week over the death of anAmerican soldier.(125)
上周政府因一名美国士兵死亡。

Some 2,000 Americans soldiers have been killedthere in Afghanistan.(126)
在阿富汗,约有2,000名美国士兵在那里被杀。

When lawmakers and others criticize negotiationswith the Taliban because they consider them(127)
立法者和其他人批评与塔利班的谈判是因为他们认为这些谈判

terrorists -- and, mind you, yesterday wasthe anniversary of the 9/11 attacks -- what(128)
恐怖分子 - 并且,请注意,昨天是9/11恐怖袭击的周年纪念日 - 什么

would you say?(129)
你可以说?

GEN.(130)
GEN。

JOSEPH VOTEL: The strategy the administrationhas put in place that was announced in August(131)
JOSEPH VOTEL:政府已于8月份宣布实施的战略

of 2017 was to move towards an end state ofreconciliation between the Taliban and the(132)
2017年的目标是走向塔利班和塔利班之间和解的最终状态

government of Afghanistan.(133)
阿富汗政府。

And so that's what the object of all of ourmilitary activity and a lot of our diplomatic(134)
所以这就是我们所有军事活动的对象和我们的许多外交活动

activity has been since then, is to createthe conditions that would bring the Taliban(135)
从那时起,活动一直是创造带来塔利班的条件

and the government of Afghanistan together.(136)
和阿富汗政府在一起。

And through our special envoy, that's whata bulk of his work has been over the last(137)
通过我们的特使,这是他的大部分工作在最后一次

year-plus, to try to do that.(138)
一年多,试图这样做。

This will not be resolved militarily.(139)
这不会在军事上解决。

STEPHANIE SY: What do we stand to lose asnation if we pull out now?(140)
STEPHANIE SY:如果我们现在退出,我们将失去什么样的国家?

GEN.(141)
GEN。

JOSEPH VOTEL: Well, I think we have to rememberthe reason why we went to Afghanistan.(142)
JOSEPH VOTEL:嗯,我想我们必须记住我们去阿富汗的原因。

We went to Afghanistan because Afghanistanturned into a land of instability that allowed(143)
我们前往阿富汗是因为阿富汗变成了一个允许的不稳定之地

an organization like al-Qaida to plot an attackthat killed 3,000 of our citizens.(144)
像基地组织这样的组织策划了一场袭击,造成3000名公民死亡。

STEPHANIE SY: Is it not still completely unstable?(145)
STEPHANIE SY:它还不完全不稳定吗?

GEN.(146)
GEN。

JOSEPH VOTEL: I don't know that it's completelyunstable.(147)
JOSEPH VOTEL:我不知道它完全不稳定。

There certainly is an element of instabilitythat is being caused by the Taliban and other(148)
塔利班和其他国家肯定会造成不稳定因素

terrorist groups that operate in that particulararea.(149)
在该特定地区活动的恐怖主义团体。

But it's in our interest, it's in our nationalinterest to ensure that we try to get Afghanistan(150)
但这符合我们的利益,确保我们试图获得阿富汗符合我们的国家利益

as stable as we can, and that the instabilitythat remains in Afghanistan doesn't impact(151)
我们尽可能稳定,阿富汗的不稳定性不会产生影响

our other interests.(152)
我们的其他利益。

STEPHANIE SY: You recently wrote a letter,along with many other generals, more than(153)
史蒂芬妮SY:你最近和其他许多将军一起写了一封信

two dozen, about the Trump administration'spolicy toward refugees.(154)
二十几个关于特朗普政府对难民的政策。

And your argument is that drawing down thenumber of refugees this nation accepts could(155)
你的论点是,减少这个国家接受的难民人数

actually destabilize our allies, as well asthreaten our own national security.(156)
实际上破坏了我们盟国的稳定,并威胁到我们自己的国家安全。

Can you explain that?(157)
你能解释一下吗?

GEN.(158)
GEN。

JOSEPH VOTEL: Sure.(159)
JOSEPH VOTEL:好的。

One of the provisions I think that we addressedin the letter was a provision for the special(160)
我认为我们在信中提到的一项规定是特别规定

immigrant visa.(161)
移民签证。

This is a program that was set in -- was putin place a number of years ago to offer an(162)
这是一个设置的程序 - 几年前就已经提供了一个程序

opportunity for those who assisted us in ourmilitary operations to come to the United(163)
帮助我们参与军事行动的人来到美国的机会

States.(164)
状态。

I think what we have to remember is, manyof these Afghan citizens that served with(165)
我认为我们必须记住的是,这些阿富汗公民中的许多人都曾服务过

us as interpreters not only put themselves,but put their families at risk, in support(166)
我们作为口译员不仅要自己,而且要让他们的家人处于危险之中,以获得支持

of our national security objectives.(167)
我们的国家安全目标。

STEPHANIE SY: Iraqis as well.(168)
STEPHANIE SY:伊拉克人也是。

GEN.(169)
GEN。

JOSEPH VOTEL: And Iraqis as well.(170)
JOSEPH VOTEL:还有伊拉克人。

And so this is -- I think this is -- it'simportant for us to follow through, I think,(171)
所以这是 - 我认为这是 - 对我们来说,重要的是,我认为,

and provide them the safety and the opportunityto come to our country.(172)
并为他们提供安全和来我国的机会。

And the special immigrant visa, the P-2 andvisa program that's in place for Iraq, these(173)
以及伊拉克的特殊移民签证,P-2和签证计划

are extraordinarily important programs.(174)
是非常重要的计划。

And they send a very strong message to ourpartners and people that put it on the line(175)
他们向我们的合作伙伴和人们传达了一个非常强烈的信息

for us that we are with you and we are goingthe stay with you.(176)
对我们来说,我们和你在一起,我们将和你在一起。

We have talked about the number of refugeesin countries like Turkey, but also Lebanon,(177)
我们谈到了土耳其等国的难民人数,还有黎巴嫩人,

Jordan.(178)
约旦。

All of these countries, Afghanistan, Pakistan,have absorbed huge numbers of refugees.(179)
所有这些国家,阿富汗,巴基斯坦都吸收了大量难民。

And this is a challenge for the internationalcommunity that we have to address.(180)
这对我们必须解决的国际社会来说是一个挑战。

And I think the United States has to playa role and be seen as a leader on this.(181)
我认为美国必须发挥作用,并被视为这方面的领导者。

So that's what motivated me to support thisletter.(182)
所以这就是我支持这封信的动机。

STEPHANIE SY: General Joseph Votel, formerhead of Central Command, thank you so much.(183)
STEPHANIE SY:中央司令部前负责人Joseph Votel将军,非常感谢你。

GEN.(184)
GEN。

JOSEPH VOTEL: Thank you.(185)
JOSEPH VOTEL:谢谢。

It's great to be with you.(186)
很高兴和你在一起。


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