How southern black farmers were forced from their land, and their heritage
2019-08-13 00:00:00


AMNA NAWAZ: When it comes to understandingfinancial inequality in this country, economists(1)
AMNA NAWAZ:在理解这个国家的金融不平等时,经济学家们

often point to the absence of African-Americangenerational wealth as a principal factor,(2)
经常指出缺乏非洲裔美国人的代际财富作为主要因素,

resources passed from parent to child.(3)
从父级传递给子级的资源。

As John Yang reports, for many African-Americans,one source of the problem goes back decades.(4)
正如John Yang所报道的那样,对于许多非洲裔美国人来说,问题的一个来源可追溯到几十年前。

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN YANG, PBS NEWSHOUR CORRESPONDENT: Overthe past century, African-Americans have lost(5)
约翰杨,PBS NEWSHOUR记者:在过去的一个世纪里,非洲裔美国人失败了

millions of acres of farms they owned acrossthe South.(6)
他们在南方拥有数百万英亩的农场。

It's a trend propelled not just by economicforces, but by white racism and local white(7)
这不仅是经济力量推动的趋势,也是白人种族主义和当地白人推动的趋势

political and economic power.(8)
政治和经济力量。

It's not just a legacy of the Jim Crow South,either.(9)
它不仅仅是Jim Crow South的遗产。

Most of the losses have occurred since the1950s.(10)
大多数损失发生在20世纪50年代以来。

That history and its lasting effects are thesubjects of the cover story of the September(11)
这段历史及其长期影响是九月封面故事的主题

issue of the "Atlantic" magazine.(12)
发行“大西洋”杂志。

It's written by Vann Newkirk, who's a staffwriter at the magazine.(13)
它由Vann Newkirk撰写,他是该杂志的一名撰稿人。

Vann, thanks for joining us tonight.(14)
范恩,谢谢你今晚加入我们。

What is important about this story?(15)
这个故事有什么重要意义?

Why did you want to tell this story?(16)
你为什么要讲这个故事?

What is important, you think, that peopleshould know from it?(17)
你认为,重要的是人们应该从中知道什么?

VANN NEWKIRK, THE ATLANTIC: Well, right now,the country is in the middle of a lot of debates(18)
VANN NEWKIRK,大西洋:嗯,现在,这个国家正在进行很多辩论

over the racial wealth gap, over the statusand economic prosperity or lack thereof of(19)
在种族贫富差距,地位和经济繁荣或缺乏

African-Americans here, and also about reparations,perhaps.(20)
非洲裔美国人在这里,也许还有赔偿。

And I wanted to, with this piece, re-centerthe conversation on the South, on black folks(21)
我希望,通过这篇文章,重新集中在南方,黑人的谈话

in the South who often get left out in thisconversation, on one of the places where the(22)
在南方,经常在这次谈话中被遗忘,在其中一个地方

deficit has been the most extreme.(23)
赤字一直是最极端的。

And that's in farming, and then the ownershipof land.(24)
那就是农业,然后是土地的所有权。

JOHN YANG: You call this, as the headline,is "The Great Land Robbery."(25)
杨致远:你称之为“大地抢劫”。

What happened?(26)
发生了什么?

Give us an idea of what happened.(27)
让我们了解发生了什么。

VANN NEWKIRK: So, what happened was, during-- pretty much after the middle of the 20th(28)
VANN NEWKIRK:所以,在20世纪中期之后发生了什么事

century, federally-funded farm programs, theywere put out there to give small and middle-sized(29)
世纪,联邦政府资助的农场计划,他们被放在那里给予中小型

farmers loans to support farms, to keep themgoing through bad economic times.(30)
农民贷款支持农场,使他们经历糟糕的经济时期。

They systematically disenfranchised and alsodiscriminated against black farmers.(31)
他们系统地剥夺了公民权,并歧视黑人农民。

So they didn't get the loan amounts.(32)
所以他们没有得到贷款金额。

They were denied loans that they were entitledto.(33)
他们被剥夺了他们有权获得的贷款。

And often, these local USDA programs wereused as bully pulpits, or forces to actually(34)
通常,这些当地的美国农业部计划被用作欺负讲坛或实际上的力量

push black farmers off their land.(35)
推动黑人农民离开他们的土地。

JOHN YANG: And some of this was actually acceleratedor exacerbated as a result of the civil rights(36)
杨致远:由于公民权利,其中一些实际上加速或加剧了

movement, that this was a reaction to thecivil rights movement.(37)
运动,这是对民权运动的反应。

VANN NEWKIRK: Right.(38)
VANN NEWKIRK:对。

So, most of the USDA funding was actuallyleveraged through locally elected boards.(39)
因此,美国农业部的大部分资金实际上都是通过当地选举委员会来实现的。

And guess who could not vote in the South?(40)
并猜猜谁不能在南方投票?

So, what would happen is, these boards weredominated by the segregationists, and if you(41)
那么,会发生什么,这些董事会由种族隔离主义者主导,如果你

were a blackthey could ensure you never joined the NAACP,(42)
是黑色的他们可以确保你从未加入NAACP,

or never went out to vote or to march againstsegregation was to hold that money in their(43)
或者从未出去投票或反对种族隔离就是把钱留在他们的

hand and say, you're not getting this moneyunless you toe the company line.(44)
并且说,除非你遵守公司的规定,否则你不会得到这笔钱。

And so, what they did to black farmers whodidn't do that, who did go out and join the(45)
所以,他们对那些没有那样做的黑人农民做了什么,谁做了出去加入

NAACP and these organizations, they took theirmoney from them.(46)
NAACP和这些组织,他们从他们那里拿走了他们的钱。

JOHN YANG: And you also talk about the lastingeffects of this, not only the loss of sort(47)
杨杨:你也谈到了这种持久的影响,不仅仅是失去了种类

of family wealth, but also the political effects.(48)
家庭财富,也是政治影响。

VANN NEWKIRK: Right.(49)
VANN NEWKIRK:对。

Mississippi, Alabama, South Carolina, thesewere states that were, if they weren't majority(50)
密西西比州,南卡罗来纳州的阿拉巴马州,如果他们不是多数,这些州就是这样的州

black going into the Great Depression andbeyond, or close to being about half black.(51)
黑色进入大萧条时期,或接近大约半黑。

And what prompted the "Great Migration", quote-unquote,that saw millions of black people leave the(52)
引起“大迁徙”的报道引发了数百万黑人离开的原因

South, was a fact that a lot of them had theirland stolen.(53)
南方,这是一个事实,他们中的很多人的土地被盗。

Maybe, and I think this is probably what happens,if they hold onto that land, if they're able(54)
也许,而且我认为这可能发生了什么,如果他们坚持到那片土地,如果他们能够

to make money in the South and have -- andvote in the South and have some type of stake(55)
在南方赚钱,并在南方投票并拥有某种类型的股份

in the future of their kids living in theSouth, perhaps those three states at least(56)
在他们生活在南方的孩子的未来,至少可能是这三个州

stay majority black.(57)
保持大多数黑人。

What happens to the Electoral College if wehave three majority black states?(58)
如果我们有三个大多数黑人州,选举团会怎么样?

What happens to the Senate?(59)
参议院会怎么样?

You know, those are big questions.(60)
你知道,那些都是大问题。

JOHN YANG: You told the story through, inpart, through a woman in her 60s.(61)
杨约翰:你通过一个60多岁的女人来讲述这个故事。

Now, she's the third generation of her familyto be working the same farmland.(62)
现在,她是她的第三代同一农田。

The family was a able to hold on this land.(63)
这个家庭能够拥有这片土地。

Her name is Willena Scott-White, and let'stake a listen to a little bit of what she(64)
她的名字叫威廉娜斯科特 - 怀特,让我们先听听她的一点点

told you.(65)
告诉过你了。

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLENA SCOTT-WHITE, MISSISSIPPI LANDOWNER:It's dear to me that my children know what(66)
WILLENA SCOTT-WHITE,MISSISSIPPI LANDOWNER:亲爱的,我的孩子们知道

my ancestors went through, first to be wherewe are and who we are, because I’m a firm(67)
我的祖先经历过,首先是我们在哪里,我们是谁,因为我是一个坚定的人

believer that if we don't know our history,then we repeat the mistakes over and over(68)
相信如果我们不了解我们的历史,那么我们一遍又一遍地重复这些错误

again.(69)
再次。

(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN YANG: Knowing your history, she saysthat families were denied their history by(70)
杨扬:知道你的历史,她说家庭被剥夺了他们的历史

having their farmland taken away.(71)
他们的农田被带走了。

Talk about that and the other effects of this,the impact it has on families.(72)
谈论这个以及它的其他影响,它对家庭的影响。

VANN NEWKIRK: Well, I talked to dozens offarm families for this story.(73)
VANN NEWKIRK:嗯,我和几十个农场家庭谈过这个故事。

And the reason why Willena’s particularstory and character got to me is because she(74)
Willena的特殊故事和角色给我的原因是因为她

is a historian.(75)
是一位历史学家。

This is in her bones.(76)
这是她的骨头。

She wants to build a museum in the delta tohonor not just her father and grandfather,(77)
她想在三角洲建立一个博物馆,不仅仅是为了纪念她的父亲和祖父,

but all the other farmers who came beforeher.(78)
但是所有其他农民都来到她面前。

I think she embodies the idea that what we'retalking about here is s not just money, not(79)
我认为她体现了我们在这里谈论的不仅仅是金钱,而不是金钱的想法

just the access to land, but the ability toput down cultural roots, to have a place to(80)
只是获得土地,但有能力放下文化根源,有一席之地

call your own.(81)
打电话给你自己。

That's history, right?(82)
这是历史,对吗?

That's a thing that I do not believe we quiteunderstand.(83)
这是我不相信我们完全理解的事情。

It's lost when people are forced to move,when they are denied the ability to own the(84)
当人们被迫移动,当他们被剥夺了拥有移民的能力时,它就会丢失

land under their feet.(85)
他们脚下的土地。

They’re denied a bit of their history.(86)
他们被剥夺了一点历史。

These people who live in the delta now, blackf folks who live in the delta now, they are(87)
现在居住在三角洲的这些人,现在居住在三角洲的黑人,他们是

in this place that was built with their handsand work, that they are part of but not allowed(88)
在这个用他们的双手和工作建造的地方,他们是一部分但不允许

to actually hold any part of.(89)
实际上持有任何一部分。

JOHN YANG: You're also talking to serve outa lot of this land through various transactions(90)
杨扬:你也在谈论通过各种交易来服务这片土地

is now held by pension funds, by venture capitalists,by hedge funds.(91)
现在由养老基金,风险资本家和对冲基金持有。

You seem to hint that you think these transactionswere somehow unethical?(92)
您似乎暗示您认为这些交易在某种程度上是不道德的?

VANN NEWKIRK: I believe that it's possiblethrough totally ethical means at this point,(93)
VANN NEWKIRK:我相信在这一点上,通过完全道德的手段,

so many decades away from the original theft,to receive the land legitimately.(94)
离原始盗窃这么几十年,合法地收到土地。

You know, if you buy it from somebody whoowned it and they don't have the lineage of(95)
你知道,如果你是从拥有它的人手中购买的,而且他们没有血统

the land, they don't know where it came from.(96)
土地,他们不知道它来自哪里。

That's a legal purchase.(97)
这是合法的购买。

What I try to make the point of in the pieceis that it probably doesn't matter whether(98)
我试图说明这篇文章的重点是,它是否无关紧要

an individual company got its land portfolioin a place where predominantly black folks(99)
一家公司将土地投资组合放在一个主要是黑人的地方

lived and worked, and should own the land.(100)
生活和工作,应该拥有土地。

It doesn't really matter if they got individualplots of land ethically or legally.(101)
如果他们在道德或法律上获得单独的土地并不重要。

What matters is that at some point, the landwas taken unethically and was taken away from(102)
重要的是,在某些时候,土地被不道德地带走了,并被带走了

these black folks illegally.(103)
这些黑人非法。

What is our legal, ethical, moral responsibilityas a people to rectify that?(104)
作为一个人来纠正这种责任,我们的法律,道德和道德责任是什么?

JOHN YANG: Well, I really ask that.(105)
杨乔恩:嗯,我真的这么想。

You talked about reparations earlier.(106)
你之前谈到过赔偿问题。

How should we be thinking about rectifyingthis?(107)
我们该如何考虑纠正这个问题?

VANN NEWKIRK: I do not believe the currentreparations debate -- and it’s a well-meaning(108)
VANN NEWKIRK:我不相信当前的赔偿辩论 - 这是一个善意的

and well-intended effort to try and quantifyevery single thing that was done to black(109)
并且努力尝试量化每一件黑色的东西

people since slavery.(110)
奴隶制以来的人民。

That's an amazing effort, and I believe overthe last five to ten years, there have been(111)
这是一项了不起的努力,我相信在过去的五到十年里,已经有了

people doing work that folks have not beenable to approach in 150 years on quantify,(112)
人们做的工作是150年来人们无法接近量化的,

in terms of a dollar amount.(113)
以美元金额计算。

I think that approach, though, has lost thefocus on land and land ownership, and collective(114)
不过,我认为这种做法已经失去了对土地和土地所有权以及集体的关注

land ownership in some ways.(115)
土地所有权在某些方面。

And the sentimental and cultural and generationalmeaning of attachment to a place, and having(116)
以及对一个地方的依恋和感情的感伤,文化和世代意义

m mobility by choice, instead of by beingforced.(117)
选择移动性,而不是被迫。

I think that's a dimension that should beadded back to this conversation, is the original(118)
我认为这是一个应该加回到这个对话的维度,是原始的

promise of reparations was a land grant, was40 acres and a mule.(119)
赔偿的承诺是土地补助金,是40英亩和一个骡子。

You know, people didn't love it because itwas -- had certain monetary value.(120)
你知道,人们并不喜欢它,因为它具有一定的货币价值。

They loved it because it gave them a placeto call home forever, gave them something(121)
他们喜欢它,因为它给了他们一个永远打电话回家的地方,给了他们一些东西

to give to their children.(122)
给他们的孩子。

Not just money, but a sense of belonging,a place they can put their name on.(123)
不仅仅是金钱,还有归属感,他们可以把自己的名字放在哪里。

And that's -- I do believe the current reparationsdebate is missing a little bit.(124)
那就是 - 我确实认为目前的赔偿辩论有点缺失。

JOHN YANG: Vann Newkirk, its cover story,"The Great Land Robbery," in the September(125)
约翰杨:范恩纽柯克,其封面故事,“大地抢劫”,在九月

issue of "The Atlantic" -- thanks so much.(126)
“大西洋”问题 - 非常感谢。

VANN NEWKIRK: Thank you.(127)
VANN NEWKIRK:谢谢。


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