How the departure of John Bolton might change Trump's foreign policy
2019-09-10 00:00:00


JUDY WOODRUFF: So, now let's get two viewsnow on what this turmoil means for U.S. foreign(1)
JUDY WOODRUFF:那么,现在让我们就这场混乱对美国外国人的意义得到两点看法

policy with Wendy Sherman, who held a numberof senior foreign policy positions in both(2)
温迪·谢尔曼(Wendy Sherman)在两家公司担任多项高级外交政策职位

the Obama and Clinton administrations.(3)
奥巴马和克林顿政府。

She is now director of the Center for PublicLeadership at Harvard University's Kennedy(4)
她现在是哈佛大学肯尼迪公共领导中心的主任

School of Government.(5)
政府学院。

And Michael Doran, he was senior directoron the National Security Council staff focusing(6)
而Michael Doran,他是国家安全委员会工作人员的高级主管

on the Middle East during the George W. Bushadministration.(7)
在乔治·W·布什执政期间的中东问题。

He also served in the Departments of Stateand Defense.(8)
他还曾在国务院和国防部任职。

He is now a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute,a conservative Washington think tank.(9)
他现在是哈德逊研究所的高级研究员,这是一个保守的华盛顿智囊团。

And welcome to the "NewsHour" to both of you.(10)
欢迎来到你们两个人的“NewsHour”。

I want to ask both of you.(11)
我想问你们两个。

And, Wendy, I will start with you.(12)
而且,温迪,我将从你开始。

What was your reaction when you heard this,and what is the reaction you're hearing from(13)
当你听到这个消息时你的反应是什么,以及你听到的反应是什么

others?(14)
其他?

WENDY SHERMAN, Former U.S. Undersecretaryof State for Political Affairs: Well, the(15)
WENDY SHERMAN,美国前政治事务副国务卿:嗯,美国

reaction initially wasn't really a great dealof surprise, maybe on the timing, but not(16)
最初的反应实际上并不是很大的惊喜,可能在时机上,但不是

the fact of John Bolton's departure.(17)
约翰博尔顿离开的事实。

I think many of us thought this was goingto be coming down the road at one time or(18)
我想我们中的许多人都认为这将是一次性或将来的

another, and I think a few weeks ago, manyof us thought it was going to happen then.(19)
另一个,我想几个星期前,我们中的许多人都认为它会发生。

As I have said before, John Bolton never sawa war he didn't want to wage.(20)
正如我之前所说,约翰博尔顿从来没有看到他不想发动的战争。

President Trump wanted to get Americans outof conflict, wanted to take Americans out(21)
特朗普总统希望让美国人摆脱冲突,想把美国人赶出去

of Afghanistan, out of the Middle East, didn'twant too go to war, wanted to negotiate directly(22)
阿富汗走出中东,不想太开战,想直接谈判

at high levels with leaders of countries,and John Bolton had a different approach.(23)
在国家领导人的高层次上,约翰博尔顿采取了不同的方法。

On the other hand, as both Nick and Yamichepointed out, Bolton in some ways provided(24)
另一方面,正如Nick和Yamiche所指出的那样,博尔顿在某些方面提供了

guardrails for the president.(25)
总统的护栏。

He couldn't just go his merry way.(26)
他不能只是以他的快乐方式。

But, in both cases, both in the case of PresidentTrump and of John Bolton, process is not what(27)
但是,在这两种情况下,无论是特朗普总统还是约翰博尔顿,过程都不是

is important here.(28)
这里很重要。

Each of these are very strong men who believetheir point of view and their way forward(29)
每个人都是非常坚强的人,他们相信自己的观点和前进的方向

is the right way forward.(30)
是正确的前进方向。

One, however, happens to be the presidentof the United States, and he does get to decide.(31)
然而,其中一位恰好是美国总统,他确实可以做出决定。

JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Michael Doran, what wasyour reaction, and what are you hearing from(32)
JUDY WOODRUFF:迈克尔多兰,你的反应是什么,你听到了什么

other people you talked to today?(33)
你今天和别人聊过的其他人?

MICHAEL DORAN, Former National Security CouncilStaffer: My reaction was a little different.(34)
迈克尔·多兰,前国家安全委员会职员:我的反应有点不同。

It was a combination of a little bit of disappointment,but, like with Wendy, I wasn't all that surprised.(35)
这是一点点失望的结合,但是,和Wendy一样,我并不是那么惊讶。

I was disappointed because I like a lot ofJohn Bolton's policies.(36)
我很失望,因为我喜欢John Bolton的很多政策。

In particular, I like the effect that he'shad on the Iran deal.(37)
特别是,我喜欢他对伊朗协议的影响。

And I tend to agree with him.(38)
我倾向于同意他的观点。

But I was always a little bit surprised bythe choice of him as national security adviser,(39)
但他总是对他作为国家安全顾问的选择感到有些惊讶,

because that job is really best done by someonewho is a master of process, rather than content.(40)
因为那个工作最好由一个掌握流程而非内容的人来完成。

They have to obviously understand the contentand they have to have a deep awareness, a(41)
他们必须明显了解内容,他们必须有深刻的意识,a

deep knowledge of foreign policy.(42)
深刻了解外交政策。

But the job is a coordinating role, really.(43)
但是,这项工作确实是一个协调的角色。

You have to bring all of the other principalstogether in the National Security Council,(44)
你必须把所有其他校长带到国家安全委员会,

make sure that the president understands theviews of those principals as those principals(45)
确保总统理解这些校长作为那些校长的观点

want them to be understood, and then to helpthe president come to a decision.(46)
希望他们被理解,然后帮助总统做出决定。

And, as your reporter said, you have to implementthe president's decision and not pursue your(47)
而且,正如你的记者所说,你必须执行总统的决定,而不是追求你的决定

own agenda.(48)
自己的议程。

JUDY WOODRUFF: But it sounds like you're saying,Michael Doran, that you don't think that was(49)
JUDY WOODRUFF:但听起来你在说Michael Doran,你认为那不是

John Bolton's strength, coordination, keepingthe trains running on time, in effect, at(50)
约翰博尔顿的力量,协调,保持火车准时运行,实际上,在

the National Security Council?(51)
国家安全委员会?

MICHAEL DORAN: Exactly.(52)
MICHAEL DORAN:没错。

I mean, we all know he's a -- I worked withhim when I was in the Bush White House.(53)
我的意思是,我们都知道他是 - 我在布什白宫时和他一起工作过。

He's an extremely talented and intelligentperson, and he's also a professional.(54)
他是一个非常有才华和聪明的人,他也是一个专业人士。

But he's a man with very strong views.(55)
但他是一个观点非常强烈的人。

And that's not what you look for in a nationalsecurity adviser, usually.(56)
而这通常不是你在国家安全顾问中寻找的东西。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Wendy Sherman, what ultimatelydo you think is John Bolton's effect on U.S.(57)
JUDY WOODRUFF:Wendy Sherman,你认为John Bolton对美国的影响最终是什么

foreign policy?(58)
对外政策?

Where did he make the most difference?(59)
他在哪里发挥最大作用?

WENDY SHERMAN: I think his effect has beenquite disastrous, because we don't have a(60)
WENDY SHERMAN:我认为他的影响是非常灾难性的,因为我们没有

resolution to any of the many problems infront of us.(61)
解决我们面前的许多问题。

The president, of course, left the Iran nucleardeal, but Iran is now heading back towards(62)
当然,总统离开了伊朗的核协议,但伊朗现在正在回归

getting a nuclear weapon, and we don't haveany less state sponsorship of terrorism in(63)
获得核武器,我们国家对恐怖主义的赞助并不少

the Middle East.(64)
中东地区。

We don't have a resolution on Venezuela, eventhough John Bolton took a very muscular approach(65)
我们没有委内瑞拉的决议,尽管约翰博尔顿采取了非常强硬的方法

toward Venezuela.(66)
走向委内瑞拉。

And the president, I think, quite frankly,just lost interest.(67)
我认为,总统坦率地说,失去了兴趣。

We don't have resolution on North Korea.(68)
我们没有关于朝鲜的决议。

And as we all know, famously, John Boltongot sent to Mongolia in the process because(69)
众所周知,着名的是,约翰博尔顿在此过程中被送往蒙古

of his disagreements with the president.(70)
他与总统的分歧。

We don't have resolution in the China tarifftrade deal.(71)
我们没有解决中国关税贸易协议。

And I would say the only place where JohnBolton's hand has really shown is that he(72)
而且我会说约翰博尔顿手上唯一真正表现出来的地方就是他

did get the president to withdraw from theINF Treaty.(73)
确实让总统退出了INF条约。

That's the treaty with Russia around missiles.(74)
这是与俄罗斯围绕导弹的条约。

And, indeed, I think the president didn'tmuch care about that and was glad to let Bolton(75)
事实上,我认为总统并不太关心这一点,并很高兴让博尔顿

take the lead.(76)
率先。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Michael Doran, you want toreact to that?(77)
JUDY WOODRUFF:Michael Doran,你想对此作出反应吗?

Where do you see John Bolton having affectedU.S. foreign policy the most?(78)
你在哪里看到约翰博尔顿对美国外交政策的影响最大?

MICHAEL DORAN: Well, I don't think that resolutionof disputes is the standard we need to look(79)
MICHAEL DORAN:嗯,我不认为解决纠纷是我们需要看的标准

at, because the United States is going tohave enemies, by virtue of who it is and what(80)
在,因为美国将会有敌人,因为它是谁和什么

it has done historically.(81)
它在历史上已经完成了。

And Iran is an enemy of the United States.(82)
而伊朗则是美国的敌人。

That's not because of the United States -- anythingthat the United States has done.(83)
这不是因为美国 - 美国所做的任何事情。

It's because Iran wants to drive the UnitedStates from the Middle East.(84)
这是因为伊朗希望将美国赶出中东。

And so Bolton helped the president put togethera containment policy of Iran, a policy of(85)
所以博尔顿帮助总统制定了伊朗的遏制政策,这是一项政策

competing with Iran, unlike the Obama administration,which basically opened up the doors to the(86)
与奥巴马竞争,不像奥巴马政府,它基本上打开了大门

region to let Iran do whatever it wanted.(87)
让伊朗做任何想做的事情的地区。

So I think that Bolton played a very goodrole there.(88)
所以我认为博尔顿在那里发挥了非常好的作用。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Do you think, Wendy Sherman-- let me put it this way.(89)
JUDY WOODRUFF:你觉得,Wendy Sherman--让我这样说吧。

Do you think it will make a big difference,Wendy Sherman, that John Bolton is gone?(90)
你觉得它会有很大的不同吗,Wendy Sherman,John Bolton已经离开了吗?

Where do you see it making a difference?(91)
你觉得它在哪里有所作为?

WENDY SHERMAN: I think the president willfeel that he has a completely free hand now(92)
WENDY SHERMAN:我认为总统现在会觉得他完全自由

to do whatever he wants to do.(93)
做他想做的事。

We have seen Mick Mulvaney, the chief of staff,take a very different approach to previous(94)
我们已经看到,参谋长Mick Mulvaney采取了与以前不同的方法

chiefs of staff by letting Trump simply beTrump.(95)
让特朗普成为特朗普的参谋长。

The president wants to make his own decisions.(96)
总统想做出自己的决定。

He believes he's his own best adviser.(97)
他相信他是他自己最好的顾问。

He believes in photo opportunities and flair.(98)
他相信摄影机会和才华。

He isn't someone who very much likes process.(99)
他不是非常喜欢过程的人。

He doesn't want to rely on experts.(100)
他不想依赖专家。

He doesn't want the deliberative process thatMichael has outlined.(101)
他不想要迈克尔概述的审议过程。

So I think we will see the president havemore engagements with leaders at high levels,(102)
所以我想我们会看到总统与高层领导人有更多的接触,

try to take some creative approaches to variousissues of concern.(103)
尝试采取一些创造性的方法来解决各种问题。

But those approaches aren't going to get usan outcome that protects American national(104)
但这些方法不会让我们得到保护美国国民的结果

security, because they won't be well-prepared.(105)
安全,因为他们不会做好充分的准备。

There won't be a deliberative process.(106)
不会有审议过程。

He won't rely on the people around him whocan bring history, understanding, expertise,(107)
他不会依赖周围的人,他们可以带来历史,理解,专业知识,

and ideas to the table.(108)
和想法到桌子。

JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Michael Doran, just quickly,what do you think is going to change?(109)
JUDY WOODRUFF:而且,Michael Doran,很快,您认为会发生什么变化?

What will be different without John Bolton?(110)
没有约翰博尔顿会有什么不同?

MICHAEL DORAN: I think it's mainly one oftactics.(111)
MICHAEL DORAN:我认为这主要是策略之一。

I think that was the -- John Bolton wantedto have a hard policy against actors like(112)
我认为那是 - 约翰博尔顿希望对像这样的演员采取严厉的政策

Iran, and he wanted it to be constantly hardin every way.(113)
伊朗,他希望它在各方面都能不断努力。

I think the president wants to have -- startout with hard policy.(114)
我认为总统希望 - 从严格的政策开始。

He wants to have leverage, but then he wantsto have tactical flexibility with how he deals(115)
他希望有杠杆作用,但随后他希望在交易方式上具有战术灵活性

with the Iranians, including meeting themperhaps at the U.N. General Assembly.(116)
与伊朗人在一起,包括在联合国大会上与他们会面。

So I think we're going to see a lot more tacticalflexibility, but I will be surprised if there(117)
所以我认为我们会看到更多的战术灵活性,但如果有的话,我会感到惊讶

is a very significant change in the main policiesof the government, just because people like(118)
政府的主要政策是一个非常重大的变化,只因为人们喜欢

Mike Pompeo, who has a very good relationshipwith the president, doesn't have a world view(119)
与总统关系非常好的Mike Pompeo没有世界观

that's significantly different than John Bolton's.(120)
这与John Bolton的显着不同。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Michael Doran and Wendy Sherman,thank you both very much.(121)
JUDY WOODRUFF:Michael Doran和Wendy Sherman,非常感谢你们。

MICHAEL DORAN: Thank you.(122)
MICHAEL DORAN:谢谢。

WENDY SHERMAN: Thank you, Judy.(123)
WENDY SHERMAN:谢谢Judy。


All News Articles fetched from PBS RSS Feeds and copyrighted by pbs.org