Shields and Brooks on James Comey’s tell-all, Paul Ryan’s retirement
2018-04-13 00:00:00


JOHN YANG: But first to the analysis of Shieldsand Brooks.(1)
JOHN YANG:但首先要分析一下Shields和Brooks。

That's syndicated columnist Mark Shields andNew York Times columnist David Brooks, who(2)
这是联合专栏作家马克盾和纽约时报专栏作家大卫布鲁克斯,谁

joins us tonight from San Francisco.(3)
今天晚上从旧金山加入我们。

Gentlemen, welcome to you both.(4)
先生们,欢迎你们两位。

We have a lot of talk about the new book byJames Comey.(5)
我们有很多关于詹姆斯柯米的新书的讨论。

He talks about -- describes the presidentas being unethical, untethered to the truth,(6)
他谈到 - 将总统描述为不道德,不受事实束缚,

and describes his presidency as a forest fire.(7)
并将他的总统职位描述为森林大火。

David, let me start with you.(8)
大卫,让我先从你开始。

What -- from what you have read of the reportingand the excerpts, what's your takeaway?(9)
什么 - 从你读过的报道和摘录中,你有什么收获?

DAVID BROOKS: Well, I think President Trumphas done a pretty good job of confirming everything(10)
大卫布鲁克斯:呃,我认为特朗普总统在确认一切方面做得很好

Comey said by his tweets today.(11)
Comey今天发表了他的推文。

I mean, the word slimeball shouldn't be comingout of the White House.(12)
我的意思是,slimeball这个词不应该从白宫走出来。

I think it's aptly titled.(13)
我认为这是恰当的标题。

One of the things we see in this book is aguy who is like, frankly, a lot of people(14)
我们在这本书中看到的一件事是一个坦率地说很多人喜欢的人

who work in government in Washington as partof the career civil service, that their loyalty(15)
谁在华盛顿政府工作作为职业公务员的一部分,他们的忠诚

is not to red and blue.(16)
不是红色和蓝色。

And we're used to covering politics as a redand blue tribal war.(17)
我们习惯于将政治视为红色和蓝色的部落战争。

But their loyalty is to their profession,to their agency, to their institution, to(18)
但他们的忠诚是他们的职业,他们的机构,他们的机构,以

some other set of standards.(19)
一些其他标准。

And they get in the middle of red-blue fightsand they probably have their own personal(20)
他们处于红蓝战斗中,他们可能拥有自己的个人

opinions, but Comey seems to be a guy whohas loyalties to other things.(21)
意见,但Comey似乎是一个忠于其他事物的人。

And he's offended Democrats mightily.(22)
他非常冒犯了民主党人。

He's offended the Republican president mightily.(23)
他非常冒犯了共和党总统。

And I think he passes the smell test, by andlarge.(24)
我认为他总体上通过了气味测试。

And I so think he's honest that it could -- it'squite possible that Donald Trump didn't do(25)
我真的认为他可以 - 唐纳德特朗普很可能不这样做

anything criminal here, but did do somethingmafioso-like.(26)
这里有任何罪恶,但确实做了一些类似黑手党的事情。

And that's, frankly, not a completely newrevelation.(27)
坦率地说,这不是一个全新的启示。

JOHN YANG: Mark?(28)
JOHN YANG:马克?

MARK SHIELDS: I think David makes a very goodpoint about Jim Comey, who has been a rather(29)
MARK SHIELDS:我认为David对Jim Comey说得非常好,他一直都是

remarkable public servant for a long timeand then found himself, in 2016, on the receiving(30)
卓越的公务员很长一段时间,然后在2016年发现自己在接受

end of vilification from both candidates,from the Clinton people for his handling of(31)
从两位候选人,从克林顿人民处理诽谤结束

the e-mail matter right up to the ElectionDay, and by the Trump people since and then(32)
电子邮件直到选举日为止,以及特朗普人从那时起

his firing.(33)
他的射击。

And the president's adding to the sort ofannals of American presidential rhetoric this(34)
而总统的这种美国总统修辞的增添就是这样的

week, along with malice toward none and charitytoward all, and the only thing we have to(35)
一周,对所有人都没有恶意,对所有人都是慈善机构,也是我们唯一需要的

fear is fear itself, to a weak and untruthfulslimeball is what he's called James Comey.(36)
恐惧本身就是恐惧,对一个软弱和不真实的傻子球来说就是他所谓的詹姆斯科米。

I do think that this is not to be confusedwith the "Fire and Fury" book, which was great(37)
我认为这不应该与“火与愤怒”这本书相混淆,这本书很棒

gossip and great anecdotage.(38)
八卦和伟大的趣闻。

This is the testimony, straightforwardly,on the record, of a rather remarkable public(39)
这是一个非常了不起的公众的直言不讳的证词

servant who kept notes on everything and giveshis own testimony.(40)
仆人在一切事物上留下记录并给出他自己的见证。

It's not hearsay.(41)
这不是传闻。

This is what he says.(42)
这就是他所说的。

And I think it will be given great attention.(43)
我认为这将受到高度重视。

It's already gotten great sales.(44)
它已经得到了很好的销售。

And it will become part of the national dialogue,and much to the consternation of the president.(45)
它将成为全国对话的一部分,而且会让总统大为震惊。

JOHN YANG: David, I have got to ask you.(46)
JOHN YANG:大卫,我必须问你。

There is so much of what has been said aboutthis in the press is talking about the sort(47)
在媒体上谈论这件事的时候,有很多这样的话

of personal comments and personal observationsabout the president, the size of his hands,(48)
个人评论和关于总统的个人观察,他的手的大小,

the complexion, orange tone to his -- hueto his face.(49)
肤色,橙色调对他的脸色。

It sort of feels like -- does it feel to youthat Comey is goading the president in a way?(50)
这种感觉就像 - 你觉得Comey是以某种方式走向总统的吗?

DAVID BROOKS: Not really.(51)
大卫布鲁克斯:不是。

And that reads to me like novelistic detail.(52)
这对我来说就像小说的细节。

One of the things we know about Comey is,he's a serious reader.(53)
我们对Comey所了解的一件事是,他是一位认真的读者。

He's a big fan of Reinhold Niebuhr, as amI.(54)
他是Reinhold Niebuhr的忠实粉丝,我也是。

And so I think he was trying to write a bookwhich had some literary detail that you are(55)
所以我认为他正在写一本书,里面有你的文学细节

there.(56)
那里。

I do think, in general, from what I have readof the book and the excerpts, it passes the(57)
总的来说,我认为从我读过的书和摘录中可以看出,

smell test.(58)
嗅觉测试。

One important moment for me was his descriptionof his handling of the Clinton e-mails.(59)
对我来说,一个重要的时刻是他描述他处理克林顿电子邮件。

And now he says, my goal consciously wasn'tto let politics influence my decision.(60)
现在他说,我的目标有意识地不是让政治影响我的决定。

But he allows -- and this is him showing somevulnerability -- he allows the possibility(61)
但他允许 - 这是他显示出一些脆弱性 - 他允许这种可能性

that the thought of her winning election andthen having the e-mail investigation come(62)
她赢得选举的想法,然后进行电子邮件调查

out might seem illegitimate to people.(63)
对人们来说似乎是不合法的。

And he didn't want her to be elected and thensomething new comes out right after the election.(64)
而且他不希望她当选,然后在选举后出现新的东西。

He thought that might hurt the institutionof the presidency.(65)
他认为这可能会伤害总统制度。

And so he allows that that possibility couldhave had some unconscious influence on him.(66)
所以他允许这种可能性会对他产生一些无意识的影响。

And that strikes me as a man who is lookingat himself and saying, is it possible I messed(67)
这让我觉得自己是一个看着自己说话的人,是否有可能我搞砸了

up?(68)
向上?

Is it possible I was influenced in ways thatI wasn't consciously aware of?(69)
是否有可能以我没有意识到的方式影响我?

That strikes me, by the standards of Washingtonmemoirs, as a reasonably high level of honesty.(70)
按照华盛顿回忆录的标准,我觉得这是相当高的诚实度。

MARK SHIELDS: And I think one thing that wewill see is, he is a very effective witness(71)
MARK SHIELDS:我认为我们会看到的是,他是一个非常有效的见证人

on his own behalf.(72)
以他自己的名义。

And he's going -- it's full-court press.(73)
他会 - 这是全场新闻。

There's going to be media coverage.(74)
将有媒体报道。

He will be on the "NewsHour."(75)
他将在“新闻时间”上。

He will be on the networks.(76)
他将在网络上。

He will be everywhere.(77)
他将无处不在。

And he will be answering all the questions,and he will influence, if not drive, much(78)
他会回答所有的问题,如果不开车,他会影响很多

of the conversation for the next couple ofweeks.(79)
在接下来的几个星期的谈话中。

JOHN YANG: And, David, we started the weekwith the raid, the FBI raid on Michael Cohen's(80)
JOHN YANG:而且,大卫,我们在袭击开始的那个星期,联邦调查局袭击了迈克尔科恩的

office in New York and his hotel residence.(81)
在纽约的办公室和他的酒店住宅。

And that sparked the president's ire.(82)
这引发了总统的愤怒。

He talked about this being an attack on America.(83)
他谈到这是对美国的袭击。

The president keeps talking about Muellerand Rosenstein.(84)
总统一直在谈论穆勒和罗森斯坦。

Sarah Huckabee Sanders doesn't add the usualcaveats.(85)
Sarah Huckabee Sanders不会添加通常的注意事项。

She says the president does have to powerto fire Mueller, but she doesn't add the phrase,(86)
她说总统确实有权力解雇穆勒,但她并没有补充这句话,

but he's not going to do it, he is not thinkingabout it.(87)
但他不打算这样做,他没有考虑这个问题。

Does this feel like we have reached an importantpoint, maybe a flex point in this investigation?(88)
这是否觉得我们已经达到了重要的一点,也许是这次调查的一个灵活点?

DAVID BROOKS: Yes, I'm not so sure.(89)
大卫布鲁克斯:是的,我不太确定。

This is where Trump likes to be.(90)
这是特朗普喜欢的地方。

He likes to be in the mano a mano feud.(91)
他喜欢在马诺恶搞。

Somebody hits him, he hits back.(92)
有人打他,他回击。

It's a way he's shown that he can paint thedrama to his supporters, it's me against the(93)
这是他表现出的一种方式,他可以把戏剧画给他的支持者,这是我的反对

Washington political class.(94)
华盛顿政治课。

And that's been a very effective drama forhim.(95)
这对他来说是一个非常有效的戏剧。

When Silvio Berlusconi won election, and wassort of an administration a little like this,(96)
当西尔维奥贝卢斯科尼赢得选举,并且有点像这样的政府时,

Italian journalist -- or economist Luigi Zingalessaid, if you want to attack this guy, a guy(97)
意大利记者 - 或经济学家路易吉津吉尔斯说,如果你想攻击这个家伙,一个家伙

like Berlusconi, a guy like Trump, don't goafter their person, because it just becomes(98)
像特朗普这样的人,贝卢斯科尼并不追求他们的人,因为它变成了现实

him vs. the political class.(99)
他与政治阶级。

You have to go after them on policy.(100)
你必须遵守政策。

And this all distracts from the policy fights.(101)
而这一切都是分散在政策上的。

And if anybody is going to best Trump in apopularity contest, it's not because they're(102)
如果有人在流行比赛中最擅长特朗普,那不是因为他们

going to win one of these matches.(103)
去赢得其中一场比赛。

It's because they are going to say to Trumpsupporters, I have got a better deal for you,(104)
这是因为他们会对特朗普的支持者说,我对你有更好的交易,

I have got a deal on policy.(105)
我已经达成了一项政策协议。

And we're all being distracted away from that.(106)
我们都被分散开来。

MARK SHIELDS: Yes, just one other point thatI didn't make on the Comey book which I think(107)
MARK SHIELDS:是的,还有一点我没有在我认为的Comey书上做出

is important.(108)
很重要。

And that is, where was the sense of outrage?(109)
那就是愤怒的感觉在哪里?

Where was the sense of just upset as an Americancitizen that an adversary nation was trying(110)
作为一个对手国家正在尝试的美国公民感到不安

to subvert and sabotage our electoral process,our civic secular sacrament of democracy,(111)
颠覆和破坏我们的选举进程,我们公民的民主世俗圣礼,

the election of a president, a free and fairelection, and that they had sabotaged it,(112)
选举总统,自由和公平的选举,并且他们破坏了这个选举,

and set about doing that?(113)
并着手这样做?

And all the president and the president'smen were interested in was that this didn't(114)
总统和总统的所有人都感兴趣的是,事实并非如此

affect the outcome of the election.(115)
影响选举结果。

It, to me, was revelatory.(116)
对我而言,它是启示性的。

It truly, truly was, and upsetting.(117)
它确实,真实,令人不安。

And, as far as the president's reaction, youknow, I think Michael Cohen is not the Roy(118)
而且,就总统的反应,你知道,我认为迈克尔科恩不是罗伊

Cohn he was looking for.(119)
科恩他正在寻找。

And whatever Roy Cohn's defects of characterand morality were, and I think they were manifest,(120)
不管罗伊科恩的性格和道德缺陷是什么,我认为他们是显而易见的,

was compensated for with a towering intellectand guile.(121)
被高耸的智慧和诡计所弥补。

And I'm not sure that, in Michael Cohen, he'sgot going -- he's got beyond the great loyalty,(122)
我不确定,在迈克尔科恩,他已经走了 - 他超越了伟大的忠诚度,

and I think that right now is a weak linkin the president's situation.(123)
我认为现在是总统局势的薄弱环节。

JOHN YANG: David, one person who did havea turning point this week was Paul Ryan, saying(124)
JOHN YANG:大卫,本周确实有一个转折点的人是Paul Ryan,他说

he was going to leave the House at the endof his term, is going to retire.(125)
他将在任期结束时离开议会,将要退休。

What does this say and what does this bodefor the midterms and for the future of the(126)
这是什么意思,这是什么预示了中期和未来的

Republican Party, the future direction ofthe Republican Party?(127)
共和党,共和党的未来方向?

DAVID BROOKS: Well, in the near term, if you'retrying to raise money for Republican candidates,(128)
大卫布鲁克斯:呃,在短期内,如果你想为共和党候选人筹集资金,

when your speaker steps down, that's not agood way to raise money.(129)
当你的演讲者下台时,这不是筹集资金的好方法。

That's not something you brag about and say,it's really important you invest here.(130)
这不是你吹嘘和说的,你在这里投资是非常重要的。

I think the bigger story is that a lot ofus got to know Paul Ryan.(131)
我认为更大的故事是,我们很多人都认识了保罗瑞安。

He came on the scene as an intern an organizationcalled Empower America, which was run by Jack(132)
他以实习生身份出现在一个名为Empower America的组织中,该组织由Jack经营

Kemp and Bill Bennett and Jeane Kirkpatrickand a few others.(133)
肯普,比尔贝内特和杰恩柯克帕特里克等等。

And that was in the 1980s.(134)
那是在20世纪80年代。

And that was Reaganism at its high water mark.(135)
那就是里根主义高水位。

And he more or less carried -- in the 1980sand 1990s, he more or less carried that creed(136)
他或多或少地在20世纪80年代和90年代,他或多或少地承载了这一信条

and that gospel right up to 2018.(137)
那福音直到2018年。

And I think this is why Donald Trump was ableto really take over the Republican Party and(138)
我认为这就是唐纳德特朗普能够真正接管共和党和共和党的原因

make it his own.(139)
使它成为他自己的。

It's because Reaganism was never updated.(140)
这是因为里根主义从未更新过。

And the Republican establishment never developedan economic model or a domestic policy model(141)
而共和党的创立从未发展过经济模式或国内政策模式

that was fit for an America where inequalitywas widening, where anxiety was widening,(142)
这适合于不平等在扩大的美国,焦虑在扩大,

where rural America was getting hit hard.(143)
美国农村遭受重创。

They stayed with the gospel of 1984.(144)
他们留下1984年的福音。

And to this day, Paul Ryan has stayed withthat gospel.(145)
直到今天,保罗瑞安一直坚持着这个福音。

So, his story is one of somebody not changingwith the times, I think.(146)
所以,他的故事是一个不随时代变化的人,我想。

JOHN YANG: Mark?(147)
JOHN YANG:马克?

MARK SHIELDS: When I started in this business,shortly after the cooling of the Earth, I(148)
MARK SHIELDS:当我开始从事这项业务时,地球冷却后不久,我

remember being smitten by one celebrity candidateand I was sure was on his way to the White(149)
记得被一位名人候选人打伤,我确定他正在去白宫

House.(150)
屋。

And one of the grizzled veterans in the pressbus said, hey, kid, he said, always check(151)
记者巴士上的一位灰白色的老兵说,嘿,孩子,他说,经常检查

one thing.(152)
一件事。

Did they get a bigger hand on the way in oron the way out?(153)
在途中或途中,他们是否有更大的手?

In other words, after you have spoken to thecrowd or just when you're introduced.(154)
换句话说,在你与人群交谈之后或者刚刚介绍完之后。

Paul Ryan is in that category of getting abigger hand on the way in.(155)
保罗瑞安正处于获得更大胜利的类别。

He was the boy wonder.(156)
他是男孩的奇迹。

He was the intellectual force.(157)
他是智力部队。

He was the guy with now, bold ideas.(158)
他是现在,大胆的想法的人。

He leaves as a much diminished figure fornot meeting the Margaret Chase Smith test(159)
由于未达到玛格丽特蔡斯密斯考试的标准,他的数字大打折扣

of standing up to the demagogue.(160)
站在煽动者的立场上。

She did to Joe McCarthy in saying she didn'twant the party to ride to victory on the four(161)
她对乔麦卡锡说,她不希望派对在四人中获胜

horsemen of calumny, of bigotry and smearand fear and ignorance.(162)
诽谤的骑士,顽固的诽谤,恐惧和无知。

He said the president was a man of exquisitepresidential leadership.(163)
他说总统是一位精湛的总统领导人。

And I just think he leaves with a tax billthat is -- not only the country with a debt(164)
我只是觉得他留下的是一个税收法案 - 不仅是有债务的国家

of a trillion dollars a year as long as theeye can see, according to the Congressional(165)
根据国会的报告,只要眼睛能看到,每年就可以达到1万亿美元

Budget Office, but a bill that is seen byvoters in 2018 as written by the rich, for(166)
预算办公室,但这是一个在2018年被选民视为富人撰写的法案

the rich.(167)
富人。

And so it's a political -- it's no politicalasset going in.(168)
所以这是一种政治 - 这不是政治资产。

And I will say, in his defense, of the all-purpose,one-size-fits-all excuse for leaving, I want(169)
为了他的辩护,我会说,离开这个万能的,一刀切的借口,我想

to spend more time with my family, I thinkPaul Ryan does know the names of his children(170)
花更多时间陪伴我的家人,我想保罗瑞安确实知道他的孩子的名字

and does really care about his family.(171)
并且确实在乎他的家人。

I think they are teenagers, and anybody who'shad teenagers know that teenagers aren't interested(172)
我认为他们是青少年,任何有青少年的人都知道青少年不感兴趣

in spending much time with their parents,or as much time as their parents did.(173)
花费很多时间在父母身上,或者像父母那样花时间。

So I wish him luck.(174)
所以我祝他好运。

JOHN YANG: David, let me quickly, as we runout of time here, turn to the Scooter Libby(175)
约翰杨:大卫,让我快点,因为我们在这里耗尽时间,转向摩托车利比

pardon.(176)
赦免。

Is this something that -- the president sayshe doesn't know the guy, but he has heard(177)
这是否是这样的 - 总统说他不认识那个人,但他听说过

for a long time that he was treated unfairly.(178)
很长时间以来,他受到了不公平的待遇。

Is there anything more to this, do you think,that meats the eye?(179)
还有什么更多的,你认为,这是肉眼?

DAVID BROOKS: People are saying he's tryingto set a precedent so people will perjure(180)
大卫布鲁克斯:人们说他正在设法开创一个先例,以便让人们知道

themselves on Trump's behalf.(181)
他们代表特朗普。

I'm a little dubious about that.(182)
我对此有点怀疑。

There are a lot of people in the RepublicanParty and there are lot of people in the press,(183)
共和党内有很多人,新闻界有很多人,

including me, who think Scooter Libby gota bit of a raw deal, that Richard Armitage(184)
包括我,谁认为摩托车利比得到了一些原始交易,理查德阿米蒂奇

was the person who leaked Valerie Plame'sname, not him, and that his trial was conducted(185)
是泄露了Valerie Plame的名字的人,而不是他,并且他的审判已经进行

in a hyper-political environment.(186)
在超政治的环境中。

And it seems very likely to me that some ofthose people have been hanging around this(187)
对我来说,这些人中有一些人一直徘徊于此

administration asking for this pardon.(188)
政府要求这个赦免。

And one of the people most ardent about thissubject, by the way, is John Bolton, who is(189)
顺便说一句,对这个问题最热心的人之一是约翰博尔顿

the national security adviser.(190)
国家安全顾问。

So it seems likely to me that it was thatkind of intervention and not any broader trying(191)
所以对我来说,这似乎是那种干预,而不是更广泛的尝试

to send a signal.(192)
发送信号。

MARK SHIELDS: Oh, I sound cynical.(193)
MARK SHIELDS:哦,我听起来愤世嫉俗。

I really do.(194)
我真的这样做。

And I have great respect for David's point.(195)
我非常尊重戴维的观点。

But Donald Trump is not somebody with an establishedtrack record of acting spontaneously and altruistically(196)
但唐纳德特朗普并不是一个有着自发和无私行为记录的人

for others.(197)
为他人。

Donald Trump thought Scooter Libby was a shortstopfor the Houston Astros until this week.(198)
唐纳德特朗普认为斯科特利比是本周休斯顿太空人的游击手。

And somebody made the point to him that thiswould be helpful in sending word to those(199)
有人向他指出,这将有助于向这些人发送消息

now being questioned and interrogated by RobertMueller's investigation that I do pardon.(200)
现在受到罗伯特穆勒的调查的质疑和询问,我确实赦免。

And that -- I don't think there's any questionabout that.(201)
而且 - 我不认为有任何问题。

This was -- Scooter Libby was the issue thatbroke permanently the relationship between(202)
这是 - 摩托车利比是永久打破之间关系的问题

Dick Cheney and George W. Bush on the wayout.(203)
迪克切尼和乔治W.布什出路。

Bush refused to do it, partly probably self-interest.(204)
布什拒绝这样做,部分可能是自我利益。

He didn't want it to be his Marc Rich pardon,as it had been for Bill Clinton.(205)
他不想让他成为他的Marc Rich原谅人,就像比尔克林顿一样。

But he did get two-and-a-half years in jail.(206)
但他确实得到了两年半的监禁。

That was the sentence, which was, in fact,commuted.(207)
事实上,这个判决是减刑的。

JOHN YANG: Mark Shields, David Brooks, anotherweek down, and more to come.(208)
约翰杨:马克盾,大卫布鲁克斯,又一周下来,还有更多。

See you next week.(209)
下周见。

MARK SHIELDS: Thanks.(210)
MARK SHIELDS:谢谢。

JOHN YANG: Thanks.(211)
JOHN YANG:谢谢。


All News Articles fetched from PBS RSS Feeds and copyrighted by pbs.org