Shields and Brooks on impeachment hearing revelations, Democratic debate takeaways
2019-11-22 00:00:00


JUDY WOODRUFF: Historic impeachment hearingsand another debate for the Democrats running(1)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫(JUDY WOODRUFF):历史性的弹each听证会和民主党竞选的另一场辩论

for president.(2)
总统

It was a very full week.(3)
这是一个非常整整的一周。

It has been, is a very full week for Americanpolitics.(4)
对于美国政治来说,过去已经整整一周了。

And here to help us make sense of it all,as always, Shields and Brooks.(5)
一如既往,在这里帮助我们了解所有这些,包括希尔兹和布鲁克斯。

That is syndicated columnist Mark Shieldsand New York Times columnist David Brooks.(6)
辛迪加专栏作家马克·希尔兹(Mark Shields)和纽约时报专栏作家大卫·布鲁克斯(David Brooks)。

Hello to both of you.(7)
大家好

Let's go straight to impeachment, Mark.(8)
马克,让我们直接进行弹each。

Five days of hearings now, three more thisweek, a lot of drama, a lot of attention on(9)
现在有五天的听证会,本周还有三天的听证会,很多戏剧,很多关注

television.(10)
电视。

What did you take away from it?(11)
您从中带走了什么?

MARK SHIELDS: I took away from it, Judy, aquote from Oscar Handlin, who was the great(12)
马克·希尔兹(MARK SHIELDS):朱迪(Judy)是我的主笔,他是奥斯卡·汉德林(Oscar Handlin)的一句话,

American historian, Pulitzer Prize-winningfor his book "The Uprooted."(13)
美国历史学家普利策(Pulitzer)因其著作《被连根拔起》而获奖。

He said, I sought to write a book on Americanimmigrants, the history of American immigrants,(14)
他说,我试图写一本关于美国移民,美国移民历史的书,

and I realized that immigrants are Americanhistory.(15)
我意识到移民是美国的历史。

And that point was driven home so forcefully.(16)
那一点被如此有力地驱赶回了家。

It was Ambassador Yovanovitch.(17)
是约瓦诺维奇大使。

It was Colonel Vindman.(18)
是温德曼上校。

It was Fiona Hill.(19)
是菲奥娜·希尔(Fiona Hill)。

And these are people who are Americans bychoice, not by accident, like you and I.(20)
这些人是像你我一样选择的美国人,不是偶然的。

And he and she, every one of them was reassuring.(21)
而他和她,每个人都令人放心。

And I have to say, for every cheap politicalad that is run against nameless, faceless(22)
我不得不说,每一个针对匿名,不露面的廉价政治广告

bureaucrats, these were people with namesand with faces and who put their careers,(23)
官僚,有名字,有面孔,有事业的人,

their comfort, their peace of mind, theirfutures, in many cases, on the line to speak(24)
他们的舒适感,他们的内心平静,他们的未来,在许多情况下,都是在说话

truth to power.(25)
权力的真相。

And I was humbled to watch them and to listento them.(26)
我很谦卑地看着他们,听他们讲话。

JUDY WOODRUFF: David?(27)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:大卫?

DAVID BROOKS: Yes, I agree with that.(28)
大卫·布鲁克斯(David BROOKS):是的,我同意这一点。

It was a good couple of weeks for Washingtoninsiders, people who have been trained by(29)
对于华盛顿内部人士来说,这是一个很好的两周,

the government to do things a certain way.(30)
政府以某种方式做事。

And that way -- there's a right way and there'sa wrong way.(31)
这样-有正确的方法,有错误的方法。

And most of the people who have been trainedby the Foreign Service understood quickly(32)
而且大多数接受过外交部培训的人很快就能理解

that this was the wrong way to go about things.(33)
这是做事的错误方法。

This was unethical.(34)
这是不道德的。

I think Donald Trump and Rudy Giuliani, Idon't think it ever occurred to them that(35)
我认为唐纳德·特朗普和鲁迪·朱利安尼,我认为他们从来没有想过

this was unethical.(36)
这是不道德的。

What strikes me -- and this came out in Sondland'stestimony -- that everyone was in the loop,(37)
令我印象深刻的是-在桑德兰的证词中出来的-每个人都在循环中,

that this was not something they tried tohide.(38)
这不是他们试图隐藏的东西。

This was just something they thought was theway politics gets done or foreign policy gets(39)
他们只是以为这是政治的完成或外交政策的实现

done, that there's no division between personalgain and public service.(40)
做到了,个人利益和公共服务之间是没有区别的。

And so I think that's the big takeaway forme out of these weeks, is that, when this(41)
所以我认为这是我这几周最大的收获,是

started, you could have thought, oh, it wasTrump just rambling on a phone call, because(42)
开始,您可能以为,哦,特朗普只是在打个电话,因为

we had that transcript, if you remember.(43)
如果您记得的话,我们有那个成绩单。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Right.(44)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:对。

DAVID BROOKS: But now it's clear that everybodyknew.(45)
戴维·布鲁克斯(David BROOKS):但现在很明显每个人都知道。

And some people reacted with shock and horror.(46)
有些人感到震惊和恐惧。

And some people said, well, this is just thecrazy stuff we got to tolerate working for(47)
有些人说,好吧,这只是我们必须忍受的疯狂工作

Donald Trump.(48)
唐纳德·特朗普。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Is the case, Mark, now madestronger that the Democrats have been trying(49)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫(JUDY WOODRUFF):是这样吗,马克(Mark)现在变得更加坚强,民主党人一直在努力

to make that they say is a slam dunk, thatthe president tried to get the president of(50)
让他们说是灌篮,总统试图让总统成为

Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden and his son,in other words, to do the president a favor(51)
乌克兰要调查拜登和他的儿子,换句话说,是要帮总统一个忙

politically?(52)
政治上?

MARK SHIELDS: Yes, I think it is.(53)
马克·希尔兹:是的,我认为是。

Yes, I think Ambassador Sondland was probablythe least impressive, but the most damaging,(54)
是的,我认为桑德兰大使可能印象最差,但破坏力最大,

of all the witnesses.(55)
所有证人

He was going to go down.(56)
他正要下去。

He was going to say, as David put it, in theloop were Secretary Pompeo, in the loop was(57)
正如大卫所说,他要说的是庞培秘书,

Chief of Staff Mulvaney, in the loop was AmbassadorBolton, who, interestingly enough, we're going(58)
幕僚长穆尔瓦尼(Mulvaney),在座的是博尔顿(Bolton)大使,有趣的是,我们将

to find out if he has the same courage ofhis convictions, the same backbone as Fiona(59)
找出他是否拥有与信念相同的勇气和Fiona的骨干力量

Hill, who worked for him did, or has a $2million book sale advance bought his silence.(60)
为他工作的希尔做到了,或者预售了200万美元,这使他沉默了。

I would be interested to see if he's goingto come forward and speak truth to power.(61)
我很想知道他是否会挺身而出对权力说真话。

JUDY WOODRUFF: He tweeted today that he'sgoing to speak.(62)
JUDY WOODRUFF:他今天发推文说他要讲话。

(CROSSTALK)
JUDY WOODRUFF: But we don't know.(63)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:但是我们不知道。

MARK SHIELDS: He got his Twitter back, iswhat I read in his tweets today.(64)
马克·希尔兹(MARK SHIELDS):他今天恢复了Twitter,这是我今天在其推文中看到的内容。

And I'm just really reassured by that.(65)
我真的对此感到放心。

(LAUGHTER)
MARK SHIELDS: So, I just -- I really thinkthat the case is strong.(66)
马克·希尔兹(MARK SHIELDS):所以,我只是-我真的认为情况很充分。

What I have underestimated -- and I thinkDavid was right -- is the fear that David(67)
我低估了-我认为戴维是对的-是对戴维的恐惧

-- that Donald Trump exercises over Republicans.(68)
-唐纳德​​·特朗普对共和党人行使。

I mean, people talked about Lyndon Johnsonbeing a fearsome political leader.(69)
我的意思是,人们谈论林登·约翰逊是一位可怕的政治领袖。

They don't even approach.(70)
他们甚至不靠近。

I mean, he strikes fear into the hearts ofRepublicans up and down the line.(71)
我的意思是,他上下不断地将恐惧带入共和党的心中。

And I think that is -- that, to me, has beeneye-opening in its dimensions.(72)
我认为那是-在我看来,它的尺寸令人大开眼界。

JUDY WOODRUFF: So, the case -- is the casestronger, David, or does it even matter?(73)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫(JUDY WOODRUFF):那么,情况是否如此?戴维,还是重要吗?

DAVID BROOKS: Well, the case is legally stronger,but it's not politically stronger.(74)
戴维·布鲁克斯(David BROOKS):嗯,从法律上讲,这起案件更强大了,但从政治上来说,却没有那么强大。

We have had now a bunch of polls.(75)
我们现在进行了一堆民意调查。

Nate Silver's Web site, FiveThirtyEight, hasan agglomeration of them.(76)
Nate Silver的网站FiveThirtyEight有一个聚集点。

And it shows that the public support for impeachmenthas gone down very slightly over the last(77)
结果表明,公众对弹each的支持在过去的几年中已微跌

couple of weeks.(78)
几个星期。

It's now about 45-45.(79)
现在大约是45-45。

The nation is evenly divided.(80)
全国平均分配。

In swing states, it's gone -- impeachmenthas become less popular.(81)
在摇摆状态下,弹gone已经不复存在了。

We don't have a lot of data.(82)
我们没有很多数据。

But, in Wisconsin, only 40 percent of voterssupport impeachment.(83)
但是,在威斯康星州,只有40%的选民支持弹each。

Roughly 53 oppose it.(84)
大约有53个反对。

And I think we have seen there's a Politicopoll where they asked independent voters,(85)
我认为我们已经看到了一项政治调查,他们问独立选民,

what do you think?(86)
你怎么看?

And independent voters don't like it at all,and by 61-23, they think that's the sort of(87)
独立选民根本不喜欢它,到61-23岁时,他们认为这是

thing that's more of interest to media peoplethan it is to me.(88)
媒体人员比我更感兴趣的事情。

And so I don't think -- I don't think -- Ithink everybody knows he's guilty.(89)
所以我不认为-我不认为-我认为每个人都知道他有罪。

They just don't think this is the issue thataffects my life.(90)
他们只是认为这不是影响我生活的问题。

And why are they talking about all this stuff?(91)
他们为什么要谈论所有这些东西?

JUDY WOODRUFF: How do you -- I mean, Mark,the Republicans keep saying, as we heard yesterday,(92)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫(JUDY WOODRUFF):您如何-马克(Mark),共和党人一直在说,正如我们昨天听到的那样,

it's a show trial, the Democrats have beenout to get President Trump from day one.(93)
这是一场表演赛,民主党人从第一天起就一直在寻求特朗普总统的支持。

Is that the argument that is winning peopleover?(94)
那是在争取人们的争论吗?

MARK SHIELDS: It's an argument, Judy, butit's not a persuasive argument.(95)
马克·希尔兹:这是一个论点,朱迪,但这不是有说服力的论点。

I mean, just as a political calculus, it wasnot -- it didn't make sense.(96)
我的意思是,就像政治上的演算一样,这不是-没有道理。

I mean, there was no question, after the Muellerreport was botched, or however you want to(97)
我的意思是,毫无疑问,穆勒报告被废除之后,还是您想

put it, or the -- Attorney General Barr steppedon it, Donald Trump felt liberated, and liberated(98)
穿上它,或者-总检察长巴尔(Barr)踩到它,唐纳德·特朗普(Donald Trump)感到自由,并获得了解放

enough to make that phone call.(99)
足以拨打该电话。

And the reality is that there wasn't a Democratwho was not under indictment or detox who(100)
事实是,没有一个没有受到起诉或排毒的民主党人

was thinking in terms of impeachment at thatpoint.(101)
当时在考虑弹imp问题。

It wasn't until the news of this came out,and it became so obvious.(102)
直到这个消息出来了,它才变得如此明显。

I mean, not to act was an action itself thatDemocrats or anybody else in Congress or America(103)
我的意思是,不采取行动本身就是民主党或国会或美国其他任何人的行动

would have to answer for.(104)
将不得不回答。

I mean, if this is modus operandi, acceptablefor an American president to do this, to extort(105)
我的意思是,如果这是一种作案手法,那么美国总统这样做是可以接受的。

basically another country that is dependentupon us, to get information, unflattering,(106)
基本上是另一个依赖我们的国家来获取信息

unhelpful, damaging information the president'spolitical opponent, and that that is -- that's,(107)
总统的政治对手无用的,破坏性的信息,那就是-

what, OK, acceptable, look the other way?(108)
什么,好的,可以接受,从另一个角度看?

I mean, you have got a lot to answer for ifyou don't address it.(109)
我的意思是,如果您不解决这个问题,您还有很多要回答的问题。

DAVID BROOKS: Yes, I think that's a strongargument.(110)
大卫·布鲁克斯(David BROOKS):是的,我认为这是一个有力的论据。

They had to do this just to uphold the standardsof our country, and that I can't think of(111)
他们必须这样做只是为了维护我们国家的标准,而我想不到

any president who has done anything as badas this and didn't get impeached.(112)
任何做过这种事并且没有受到弹imp的总统。

And so, I mean, that's basically true.(113)
所以,我的意思是,基本上是正确的。

I think Democrats do have to acknowledge thatit's not a political winner.(114)
我认为民主党人确实必须承认这不是政治胜利者。

And some of them walked into this sort ofknowing that.(115)
他们中的一些人了解了这一点。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Why not?(116)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:为什么不呢?

What do you mean, not a political winner?(117)
您是什么意思,不是政治胜利者?

DAVID BROOKS: Well, I think if you're losingindependents and you're losing swing states,(118)
大卫·布鲁克(David BROOKS):好吧,我想如果您正在失去独立人士,并且正在失去摇摆状态,

and you're -- it's very likely now that sixof your Senate candidates will be sitting(119)
您很可能现在有六位参议员候选人

in Washington, D.C., through January duringthe Senate trial, Elizabeth Warren, Bernie(120)
一月份参议院审判期间在华盛顿特区,伊丽莎白·沃伦,伯尼

Sanders and the rest, then this is a kindof a disadvantage.(121)
桑德斯和其他人,那么这是一种劣势。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Right.(122)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:对。

And I think it is just -- I think -- my conversationswith Trump supporters in red states, first(123)
我认为这只是-我认为-我与红色州的特朗普支持者的对话首先

of all, when I go out there, nobody talksabout.(124)
总而言之,当我外出时,没有人谈论。

It's just not on the subject.(125)
这不是主题。

Then, if you ask, everyone I have spoken tosays, yes, he did it, and he shouldn't have(126)
然后,如果您问,我与之交谈的每个人都说,是的,他做到了,他不应该

done, it was a stupid thing to do.(127)
完成,这是一件愚蠢的事情。

But this is -- we're in the context of a longpolitical and cultural war in this country.(128)
但这是-我们正处于这个国家长期的政治和文化战争中。

And, finally, I have got a guy who hits backat the people who hate me.(129)
最后,我有了一个反击讨厌我的人的家伙。

And so I'm not going to abandon him.(130)
所以我不会抛弃他。

And so they don't see it as a unique trialabout one incident.(131)
因此,他们不认为这是对一个事件的独特审判。

They see it as part of the longer politicalbattle we have in this country, and they're(132)
他们认为这是我们在这个国家进行的更长久的政治斗争的一部分,

not going to abandon him.(133)
不会放弃他。

That's been my experience with people I havespoken with.(134)
这是我与与之交谈的人的经历。

JUDY WOODRUFF: So, you mentioned the Democraticpresidential candidates.(135)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫(JUDY WOODRUFF):因此,您提到了民主党总统候选人。

Mark, they debated this week.(136)
马克,他们在本周辩论。

There were a lot of them on the stage.(137)
舞台上有很多。

What did you take away?(138)
你带走了什么?

Memorable moment?(139)
难忘的时刻?

What changes in that contest?(140)
那场比赛有什么变化?

MARK SHIELDS: I don't know what changes, Judy.(141)
马克·希尔兹:我不知道发生了什么变化,朱迪。

Memorable moments?(142)
难忘的时刻?

Andrew Yang showing humanity, saying thathe missed Beto O'Rourke, I mean, that was(143)
杨扬表现出人性,说他想念Beto O'Rourke,那是

just sort of a human statement, I thought,that came through to me.(144)
我想,这只是一种人类的表达。

Best line of the night was Amy Klobuchar's,by far, when they asked questions that she(145)
到目前为止,当他们问有关她的问题时,最好的排队是Amy Klobuchar的

had suggested that Pete Buttigieg, if he werea woman, with his credentials, would not be(146)
曾建议皮特·布蒂吉格(Pete Buttigieg)如果是一名具有自己资历的妇女,将不会

a plausible candidate.(147)
合理的候选人。

And she said, anybody who doesn't think awoman can beat Donald Trump, Nancy Pelosi(148)
她说,任何不认为女人都能击败唐纳德·特朗普的人,南希·佩洛西

does it every day.(149)
每天都做。

And I thought that -- I didn't think therewas a game-changer.(150)
我认为-我认为没有改变游戏规则的人。

I thought Biden had even -- uneven night.(151)
我以为拜登甚至-不平衡的夜晚。

And, obviously, his stumble on claiming tohave the only African-American woman ever(152)
而且,显然,他偶然发现自己拥有唯一的非裔美国女性

elected to the Senate, Carol Moseley Braun,as his endorser, while Kamala Harris is there...(153)
卡玛拉·哈里斯(Kamala Harris)在那里当选为参议员卡罗尔·莫斯利·布劳恩(Carol Moseley Braun)作为他的代言人...

JUDY WOODRUFF: When he was standing a fewfeet away...(154)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫(JUDY WOODRUFF):当他站在几英尺远的地方时...

MARK SHIELDS: ... on the stage as the secondAfrican-American woman, who's obviously not(155)
马克·希尔兹(MARK SHIELDS):...作为第二位非洲裔美国妇女登上舞台,显然没有

endorsed Joe Biden, was a little bit of astumble.(156)
乔·拜登(Joe Biden)认可,这是一个偶然的发现。

JUDY WOODRUFF: What did you think?(157)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:你怎么看?

DAVID BROOKS: Yes, I thought they all didwell.(158)
大卫·布鲁克斯:是的,我认为他们都做得很好。

I thought, actually, Donald Trump did a littlewell.(159)
我以为,实际上,唐纳德·特朗普表现不错。

There was sort of a tone.(160)
有种语气。

They all have the same politician's tone whenthey're speaking.(161)
他们说话时都具有相同的政治人物语气。

And, sometimes, when you listen to what theysay, it comes -- you hear the content, but(162)
而且,有时候,当您听他们说的话时,它就来了-您听到了内容,但是

sometimes there's that just tone of urgency,and they all speak in the same tone.(163)
有时只是紧急的语气,他们都用相同的语气说话。

It's not the way normal people talk when they'reover a dinner table.(164)
这不是普通人在餐桌旁说话的方式。

And so I was like, oh, somebody talk likea human being.(165)
所以我就像,哦,有人像人一样说话。

And occasionally Pete Buttigieg, Andrew Yangtold a joke about what -- he would say to(166)
皮特·布蒂吉格(Pete Buttigieg)偶尔也会开玩笑说什么-他会说

Putin if he got elected president, but itwas the same monotone of politician talk.(167)
普京是否当选总统,但这与政客的话语相同。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Huh.(168)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:嗯。

DAVID BROOKS: Having said that, I thoughtButtigieg walks out of the week the advancer,(169)
大卫·布鲁克(David BROOKS):话虽如此,我认为布蒂吉格(Buttigieg)离开了晋级周,

because he was -- he's the one who star isrising.(170)
因为他是-他是那颗正在冉冉升起的星星的人。

And nobody really touched him.(171)
没有人真正碰过他。

And he sort of solidified his case, as theoutsider, as the person who doesn't have Washington(172)
而且他作为局外人和没有华盛顿的人巩固了自己的地位

experience, and who's a little more moderate.(173)
经验,还有谁比较温和。

Elizabeth Warren got to talk about the wealthtax, a policy I don't particularly like, but(174)
伊丽莎白·沃伦(Elizabeth Warren)谈到了我不特别喜欢的财产税政策,但是

I think it's probably very popular among Democraticprimary voters.(175)
我认为这在民主党主要选民中可能很受欢迎。

So I thought she did well.(176)
所以我认为她做得很好。

I thought Biden, if anybody was the loser,I guess -- I guess you would have to say he(177)
我想拜登,如果有人是失败者,我想-我想你不得不说他

was.(178)
是。

MARK SHIELDS: I do think that Buttigieg isinteresting.(179)
马克·希尔兹:我确实认为Buttigieg很有趣。

Why the dog didn't bark in the house is whythe Democrats -- leaders did not -- had they(180)
狗为什么不吠叫是为什么民主党人-领导人没有-如果他们没有

not seen the polls that showed that Pete Buttigieghad surged in New Hampshire and was now in(181)
没有看到民意调查显示Pete Buttigieg在新罕布什尔州激增,现在正在

the lead in Iowa?(182)
爱荷华州的领导?

And I just...(183)
我只是...

JUDY WOODRUFF: You mean why they didn't goafter him more.(184)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫(JUDY WOODRUFF):您的意思是为什么他们没有再追他。

MARK SHIELDS: Why they didn't go after him.(185)
马克·希尔兹:为什么他们不追随他。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Yes.(186)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:是的。

Yes.(187)
是。

MARK SHIELDS: And I think there's a certainreluctance.(188)
马克·希尔兹:我认为有些勉强。

The litany of sins in the Democratic Partyis to be sexist, misogynistic, homophobic,(189)
民主党的一连串罪恶是性别歧视,女同性恋,恐同,

xenophobic, whatever.(190)
排外的,随便的。

And I think they walked very, very gentlyaround the fact that he's the first openly(191)
我认为他们非常非常温和地绕着他是第一个公开的事实走

gay candidate and they're reluctant to goafter him.(192)
同性恋候选人,他们不愿意追随他。

Interesting number.(193)
有趣的数字。

David cited a number.(194)
大卫列举了一个数字。

When asked, would you be comfortable witha gay commander in chief, openly gay commander(195)
当被问到时,您是否愿意与一个总司令官,公开的同性恋司令官相处

in chief, 50 percent of voters say , yes,they would.(196)
总的来说,有50%的选民说,是的,他们会的。

A little over a third say they wouldn't.(197)
三分之一多的人说他们不会。

But they ask the same question, do you thinkyour neighbor would be, 25 percent think their(198)
但是他们问同样的问题,您认为您的邻居会吗,有25%的人认为他们的邻居

neighbor would be comfortable with a gay,openly gay...(199)
邻居会很高兴与一个同性恋,公开同性恋...

JUDY WOODRUFF: Very interesting.(200)
JUDY WOODRUFF:非常有趣。

MARK SHIELDS: And almost half say they wouldn't.(201)
马克·希尔兹:几乎一半的人表示不会。

So it's a question of, of course, I'm magnanimous,open-minded, large-minded, but it's that mean-spirited(202)
所以这是一个问题,当然,我坦率,豁达,胸怀大方,但这就是刻薄的精神

guy next door.(203)
隔壁的家伙。

DAVID BROOKS: They need to move to a new neighborhood,then.(204)
大卫·布鲁克(David BROOKS):然后,他们需要搬到新的社区。

MARK SHIELDS: That's right.(205)
马克·希尔兹:没错。

(LAUGHTER)
JUDY WOODRUFF: So, one last thing I want toask both of you about.(206)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫(JUDY WOODRUFF):最后,我想问你们两个。

We only got about a minute-and-a-half.(207)
我们只有大约一分半钟。

But, David, the president this week, a lotof attention around he pardoned or reduced(208)
但是,本周总统戴维(David)受到了很多关注,他原谅或减少了

the sentence of three men who are accusedof war crimes.(209)
三名被控犯有战争罪的人的判决。

And what do we take away about this?(210)
我们对此有何看法?

I mean, we know that, I guess, the Navy isstill considering one of his moves.(211)
我的意思是,我们知道,我猜想,海军仍在考虑他的一项行动。

DAVID BROOKS: Yes.(212)
大卫·布鲁克(David BROOKS):是的。

One, don't go against your own military, whichhe seems to have done.(213)
第一,不要与自己的军队对抗,他似乎已经这样做了。

Second -- and I have heard this -- and JoeKristol and others have been saying -- making(214)
其次-我听说过-乔·克里斯托(Joe Kristol)和其他人一直在说-

this point.(215)
这点。

These are people who served in combat in Afghanistanand Iraq.(216)
这些人曾在阿富汗和伊拉克作战。

That Trump said, well, these people who werein combat, they're damaged.(217)
特朗普说,嗯,这些在战斗中的人受到了伤害。

And a lot of people come back from -- andso they should be forgiven.(218)
很多人从这里回来-因此应该原谅他们。

And a lot of people who have come back fromcombat, say, don't treat us as damaged goods.(219)
而且,许多从战斗中回来的人都说,不要将我们视为损坏的物品。

We're transitioning back into life, but we'renot damaged goods.(220)
我们正在过渡到生活中,但我们没有损坏商品。

We're strengthened goods, and we have beenthrough some challenges, but we're not damaged.(221)
我们的货物得到了加强,我们经历了一些挑战,但并未受到损害。

And when we fought, we tried to uphold thehonor of the United States while fighting.(222)
当我们战斗时,我们试图在战斗中维护美国的荣誉。

MARK SHIELDS: Judy, the cleavage, the divisionon this issue is between those who have been(223)
马克·希尔兹:朱迪,乳沟,在这个问题上的分歧在于

in uniform, and those who have not.(224)
穿制服的人,没有穿制服的人。

The most fierce foes of absolving torture,rationalizing torture, accepting torture by(225)
赦免酷刑,合理化酷刑,接受酷刑的最凶猛的敌人

Americans were John McCain, Colin Powell,General Joe Hoar, the Marine general, Pete(226)
美国人有约翰·麦凯恩(John McCain),科林·鲍威尔(Colin Powell),乔·霍亚尔(Joe Hoar)将军,海军陆战队上将,皮特(Pete)

Peterson, a prisoner of war and ambassadorto Vietnam.(227)
彼得森,战俘,驻越南大使。

They understood that what separates us fromthe other side, from our enemies, is who we(228)
他们明白,使我们与对方,与敌人分离的是我们

are and what we stand for and what we believe.(229)
是什么,我们代表什么,我们相信什么。

And, to me, that's the test.(230)
而且,对我来说,这就是考验。

Donald Trump doesn't understand it.(231)
唐纳德·特朗普不明白。

And he failed it.(232)
他失败了。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Mark Shields, David Brooks,thank you.(233)
JUDY WOODRUFF:Mark Shields,David Brooks,谢谢。


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