Kellyanne Conway says 'there was no pressure applied' to Ukraine
2019-11-20 00:00:00


JUDY WOODRUFF: As we have been discussing,the Trump administration was quick today to(1)
JUDY WOODRUFF:正如我们一直在讨论的那样,特朗普政府今天迅速

push back on Ambassador Sondland's claim thatVice President Mike Pence, Secretary of State(2)
推翻桑德兰大使关于国务卿副总统迈克·彭斯的说法

Mike Pompeo, and White House acting Chiefof Staff Mick Mulvaney, among others, were(3)
Mike Pompeo和白宫代理幕僚长Mick Mulvaney等

all aware of the ambassador's efforts to getUkraine to open an investigation into the(4)
所有人都知道大使为使乌克兰展开对乌克兰的调查而做出的努力。

Bidens, an inquiry Sondland acknowledged wouldultimately benefit President Trump.(5)
桑德兰承认拜登斯的一项调查最终将使特朗普总统受益。

Kellyanne Conway is the counselor to the president.(6)
凯莉安·康威(Kellyanne Conway)是总统的顾问。

And she joins us now from the White House.(7)
她现在从白宫加入我们。

Kellyanne Conway, so many questions to askyou about today, but my first question is(8)
凯莉安·康威(Kellyanne Conway),今天有很多问题要问您,但我的第一个问题是

this.(9)
这个。

We heard the president say this afternoonhe was asking nothing of Ukraine.(10)
我们听说总统今天下午说他对乌克兰没有任何要求。

If that's the case, why was the aid held upfor several months?(11)
如果是这样,为什么援助被搁置了几个月?

Why was a meeting with the president heldup?(12)
为什么与总统举行会议?

KELLYANNE CONWAY, Counselor to President Trump:Well, the one thing that the president was(13)
特朗普总统参赞凯莉安·康威(KELLYANNE CONWAY):嗯,总统的一件事是

asking was for President Zelensky to deliveron what he had run on successfully, which(14)
要求总统Zelensky传达他成功执行的任务,

is to root out corruption.(15)
是为了铲除腐败。

And we have all read the July 25 call transcript,Judy, where both presidents are discussing(16)
我们都已经阅读了7月25日的通话记录Judy,两位总统正在讨论

-- discussing draining the swamp in theirrespective countries.(17)
-讨论排干各自国家的沼泽。

They're discussing rooting out corruption.(18)
他们正在讨论如何根除腐败。

They're discussing how that's been a problemin Ukraine.(19)
他们正在讨论在乌克兰这是怎么一个问题。

And remember that President Zelensky ran successfullyin Ukraine on an anti-corruption platform.(20)
记住,泽伦斯基总统在反腐败平台上成功地在乌克兰竞选。

JUDY WOODRUFF: But my question was...(21)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:但是我的问题是……

KELLYANNE CONWAY: So, President Trump agreeswith the Ukrainian voters that this is the(22)
KELLYANNE CONWAY:因此,特朗普总统同意乌克兰选民的看法,这是

problem in Ukraine.(23)
乌克兰的问题。

So, the aid -- they got the aid without ameeting.(24)
因此,援助-他们没有开会就得到了援助。

They got -- they got the meeting without astatement.(25)
他们得到了-他们没有声明就参加了会议。

They got the aid without a condition.(26)
他们无条件获得了援助。

And a couple of things Ambassador Sondlandtoday said were critically important.(27)
桑德兰大使今天说的几句话至关重要。

He said he doesn't -- he never heard thatthere -- the aid was conditioned on anything,(28)
他说他没有-他从未听说过那里-援助以任何条件为条件,

that when he called President Trump, the presidentsaid many times, no quid pro quo.(29)
当他给特朗普总统打电话时,总统多次说,没有什么替代品。

I just want President Zelensky to say whathe said he was going to do.(30)
我只希望泽伦斯基总统说他将要做什么。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Let me ask you about somethingelse, though, that Ambassador Sondland said.(31)
茱蒂·伍德鲁夫(JUDY WOODRUFF):不过,桑德兰大使说,让我再问您一件事。

He said he didn't want to work with Rudy Giuliani,but he said President Trump expressly directed(32)
他说他不想与鲁迪·朱利安尼(Rudy Giuliani)合作,但他说特朗普总统明确指示

him to do that.(33)
他这样做。

Why did the president want him to work withhis personal attorney?(34)
总统为什么要他与私人律师合作?

KELLYANNE CONWAY: I don't know what conversationthe president had with Ambassador Sondland.(35)
KELLYANNE CONWAY:我不知道总统与桑德兰大使进行了什么对话。

But I will tell you that -- that AmbassadorSondland very said -- very clearly said today(36)
但是我要告诉你-桑德兰大使说的很清楚-今天说得很清楚

-- and I quote him -- President Trump nevertold me directly that the aid was conditioned(37)
-我引用他-特朗普总统从未直接告诉我援助是有条件的

on the meetings.(38)
在会议上。

The only thing we got directly from Giulianiwas that Burisma and 2016 elections were conditioned(39)
我们直接从朱利安尼(Giuliani)那里得到的唯一一件事是,对Burisma和2016年选举进行了限制

on the White House meeting.(40)
在白宫会议上。

Quote: "The aid was my -- my own personal,you know, guess."(41)
Quote:“援助是我的-我个人的,你知道,猜猜。”

And so, to the extent the president ever askedAmbassador Sondland to work with Rudy Giuliani(42)
因此,在一定程度上,总统曾要求桑德兰大使与鲁迪·朱利安尼(Rudy Giuliani)合作

-- and I can't confirm or deny that, becauseI'm not sure -- it was never to get them to(43)
-而且我不确定或否认,因为我不确定-从来没有让他们参加

condition the aid on anything.(44)
将援助物放在任何东西上。

And, in fact, if people care about Ukraine,then they should be thrilled that President(45)
而且,实际上,如果人们在乎乌克兰,那他们应该为总统感到高兴

Trump has given them nearly $400 million inmilitary assistance, including...(46)
特朗普已向他们提供了近4亿美元的军事援助,包括...

JUDY WOODRUFF: But that...(47)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:但是那...

KELLYANNE CONWAY: ... including cyber-rifles,including Javelins, and other aid to help(48)
KELLYANNE CONWAY:... ...包括标枪在内的网络步枪,以及其他有助于

them fight against Russia and other threats.(49)
他们与俄罗斯和其他威胁作斗争。

JUDY WOODRUFF: But, as we know, that aid camelater than others in the administration were(50)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫(JUDY WOODRUFF):但是,据我们所知,援助来得晚于政府中的其他人

-- were saying that it should be.(51)
-有人说应该。

But just to be clear, Kellyanne Conway, wedid hear from Ambassador Sondland that there(52)
但是要明确一点,凯莉安·康威,我们确实听到桑德兰大使说

was a clear quid quo pro from Rudy Giuliani,reflecting the president's wishes, that there(53)
是鲁迪·朱利安尼(Rudy Giuliani)明确表示的亲,反映了总统的意愿,

not be a White House meeting until there wasan investigation of the Bidens, 2016, the(54)
直到对拜登(Bidens)进行调查后,白宫才会召开会议,2016年,

DNC server and so on.(55)
DNC服务器等。

KELLYANNE CONWAY: But the -- I'm sorry, butthe meeting -- other people are in my ear,(56)
KELLYANNE CONWAY:但是-很抱歉,这次会议-其他人在我耳边,

Judy.(57)
朱迪

I apologize.(58)
我道歉。

But the meeting happened without a statement.(59)
但是会议没有发表任何声明。

The meeting happened for the whole world tosee up at the United Nations General Assembly(60)
会议的召开使全世界有机会参加联合国大会

in September, in that same month.(61)
在同月的9月。

And I think what's incredibly important foryour viewers to know is that both the president(62)
而且我认为让您的观众知道的非常重要的一点是

of the United States and the president ofUkraine and their top diplomats have said(63)
美国和乌克兰总统及其最高外交官表示

there was no pressure applied.(64)
没有施加压力。

The aid was delivered.(65)
援助物资已交付。

They didn't know the aid was being held up.(66)
他们不知道援助被阻止了。

I mean, all this is critically important.(67)
我的意思是,所有这些都是至关重要的。

I think this is why you see the polling goingin the wrong direction for the Democrats,(68)
我认为这就是为什么您看到民意调查朝错误的方向前进的原因,

who insist on this impeachment inquiry.(69)
他们坚持进行弹imp调查。

The poll released yesterday by Morning Consultclearly said that independents have a -- have(70)
晨咨询公司昨天发布的民意调查清楚地表明,独立人士有一个

gone down 10 percent in terms of approvingof the impeachment.(71)
就弹the的批准而言,下降了10%。

There's a reason for that.(72)
这是有原因的。

They're tuning in, and they can't understandwhat's happening.(73)
他们正在调音,他们无法理解正在发生的事情。

Why all these hours of testimony?(74)
为什么所有这些小时的见证?

What are we trying to prove?(75)
我们要证明什么?

JUDY WOODRUFF: Excuse me.(76)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:对不起。

Let me ask you about a couple of other things.(77)
让我问你有关其他几件事。

And I will try to do this quickly.(78)
我将尝试快速地做到这一点。

Is the president still seeking an investigationby Ukraine into Hunter Biden and his role(79)
总统是否仍在寻求乌克兰对猎人·拜登及其角色的调查

in Burisma, into what happened in Ukrainein that regard?(80)
在Burisma,乌克兰在这方面发生了什么?

KELLYANNE CONWAY: Remember, the presidentis -- is seeking investigations into corruption.(81)
KELLYANNE CONWAY:请记住,总统正在-正在寻求对腐败的调查。

So, if anybody was corrupt, or if their companywas corrupt, then they may have something(82)
因此,如果有人腐败,或者他们的公司腐败,那么他们可能会有一些事情

to worry about.(83)
担心。

But he's seeking investigations into corruption.(84)
但是他正在寻求对腐败的调查。

Ambassador Sondland testified today -- quote-- he has no recollection of discussing Biden,(85)
桑德兰大使今天作证-引用-他对讨论拜登,

Vice President Biden, or his son on that famousJuly 26 call that Ambassador Sondland also(86)
拜登副总统或他的儿子在那个著名的7月26日致电桑德兰大使

said did not discuss any classified informationand did not strike him as significant at the(87)
说没有讨论任何机密信息,也没有对他造成重大打击

time.(88)
时间。

Why is that important tonight?(89)
为什么今晚这么重要?

Because the State Department aide who sayshe overheard such call on July 26 is testifying(90)
因为说他在7月26日听到此类电话的国务院助手正在作证

tomorrow.(91)
明天。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Right.(92)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:对。

KELLYANNE CONWAY: But, today, the man whowas on the call with the president said that(93)
KELLYANNE CONWAY:但是,今天,与总统通话的那个人说

the president never mentioned Vice PresidentBiden or his son during that call -- quote(94)
总统在通话中从未提及拜登副总统或他的儿子-引用

-- "or after the call ended."(95)
-“或通话结束后。”

(CROSSTALK)
JUDY WOODRUFF: I'm sorry to interrupt.(96)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:很抱歉打扰。

But you're saying the president is still interestedin knowing anything about Hunter Biden and(97)
但是您是说总统仍然有兴趣了解有关猎人·拜登(Hunter Biden)和

Burisma?(98)
Burisma?

Is that right?(99)
那正确吗?

KELLYANNE CONWAY: He is still -- he is stillinterested in knowing about corruption.(100)
KELLYANNE CONWAY:他仍然-他仍然对了解腐败感兴趣。

And if Burisma is part of that corruption,then whoever the board members are or were(101)
如果Burisma是这种腐败的一部分,那么无论董事会成员是

need to be held to account.(102)
需要负责。

JUDY WOODRUFF: What...(103)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:什么...

KELLYANNE CONWAY: We can't inoculate Joe Bidenand his son because Joe Biden's running for(104)
KELLYANNE CONWAY:我们不能给乔·拜登和他的儿子接种疫苗,因为乔·拜登正在竞选

president now.(105)
现在的总统。

That's beside the point.(106)
那不是重点。

This happened when Vice President Biden hadUkraine in his portfolio as vice president.(107)
副总统拜登让乌克兰担任副总统时,便发生了这种情况。

This all occurred in 2015 or '16.(108)
这一切都发生在2015年或16年。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Can you say today what futuremilitary aid for Ukraine will be conditioned(109)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫(JUDY WOODRUFF):今天您能说说对乌克兰未来的军事援助有什么条件

on?(110)
上?

KELLYANNE CONWAY: Well, it will be -- I couldsay that the future military aid while President(111)
KELLYANNE CONWAY:好的,我可以说,当总统

Trump is in office will be robust and muchmore than they got from the previous administration.(112)
特朗普上任将是强大的,比他们从上届政府获得的更多。

And, Judy, I think that's incredibly important,because you heard especially yesterday and(113)
而且,朱迪,我认为这非常重要,因为您昨天特别听到了

last week people who are Ukrainian expertsor people who want to make sure Ukraine policy(114)
上周是乌克兰专家的人们或想确保乌克兰政策的人们

vis-a-vis the U.S. is well-resourced, is well-respected.(115)
相对于美国资源丰富,备受尊重。

They should be thrilled that President Trumpis in office, then, because the aid not only(116)
那么,他们应该为特朗普总统就职而感到兴奋,因为援助不仅

got there, but it's far more and far moreimportant to the Ukraine than the aid they(117)
到达那里,但这对乌克兰比他们的援助越来越重要

got in the previous administration.(118)
上届政府。

So I can tell you that, that the aid willcontinue.(119)
所以我可以告诉你,援助将继续。

But we're watching.(120)
但是我们在看。

JUDY WOODRUFF: And -- and...(121)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:还有-还有...

KELLYANNE CONWAY: We think it's very importantthat this aid, that President Zelensky made(122)
KELLYANNE CONWAY:我们认为,泽伦斯基总统提供的这种援助非常重要

good on his promise to be an anti-corruptionfighter.(123)
他兑现了成为反腐败斗士的诺言。

JUDY WOODRUFF: The White House put out statementsyesterday that were critical of Alexander(124)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫(JUDY WOODRUFF):白宫昨天发表了批评亚历山大的声明

Vindman, who, of course, the colonel who isdetailed to the National Security Council.(125)
温德曼,当然是上校,向国家安全委员会详细介绍。

Is his job secure?(126)
他的工作安全吗?

And is the job of Ambassador Sondland secure?(127)
桑德兰大使的工作是否安全?

We know there were critical statements madeabout what he said today by the administration.(128)
我们知道,奥巴马政府今天对他的讲话发表了批评性声明。

KELLYANNE CONWAY: Well, those are both -- they'reboth people who still work for the administration.(129)
KELLYANNE CONWAY:嗯,这两者-都是仍然在政府部门工作的人。

And I will say that Ambassador O'Brien, thenew head of the National Security Council(130)
我要说的是国家安全委员会新任主席奥布莱恩大使

here, has stated publicly that he will tryto shrink what he sees to be a bloated staff(131)
在这里公开表示,他将努力缩小自己认为a肿的员工

here at the National Security Council.(132)
在国家安全委员会。

I will leave that up to him and his boss,the president of the United States, the commander(133)
我将留给他和他的老板,美国总统,指挥官

in chief.(134)
首席。

JUDY WOODRUFF: So, you -- so, you...(135)
JUDY WOODRUFF:所以,你-所以,你...

KELLYANNE CONWAY: But I will -- but I willtell that I have not -- I have never and I(136)
KELLYANNE CONWAY:但是我会-但我会告诉我我没有-我从来没有,而且我

would never question the patriotism of LieutenantColonel Vindman.(137)
永远不会质疑温德曼上校的爱国主义。

I don't know him, but I would not questionhis patriotism.(138)
我不认识他,但我不会质疑他的爱国主义。

What I do question overall in these hearingsis why we have people testifying for hours(139)
我在这些听证会上总体上提出的问题是,为什么我们要有人供证几个小时

and hours and hours, Judy, who have nevermet the president, who have never had a conversation(140)
还有几个小时,从未见过总统的朱迪(Judy),从未交谈过

about his policies in Ukraine, because theirview of Ukrainian policy is only important(141)
关于他在乌克兰的政策,因为他们对乌克兰政策的看法很重要

insofar as they are executing on the president'sagenda.(142)
就他们执行总统的议程而言。

He sets the policy, our foreign policy, ournational security interests.(143)
他制定政策,我们的外交政策,我们的国家安全利益。

JUDY WOODRUFF: And...(144)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:还有...

KELLYANNE CONWAY: And people's assumptions,inferences, interpretations, conjecture, insinuations,(145)
KELLYANNE CONWAY:人们的假设,推论,解释,猜想,暗示,

those are not important.(146)
这些并不重要。

The facts matter.(147)
事实很重要。

JUDY WOODRUFF: So, just...(148)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:所以,只是...

KELLYANNE CONWAY: The fact is, Ukraine gotits aid.(149)
KELLYANNE CONWAY:事实是,乌克兰得到了援助。

JUDY WOODRUFF: So very, very quickly, so you're-- you're not saying that his job is secure,(150)
JUDY WOODRUFF:非常非常非常快,所以-您并不是说他的工作很安全,

that he may be part of this downsizing youmentioned at the NSC?(151)
他可能是您在NSC中提到的这种裁员的一部分?

KELLYANNE CONWAY: No, I don't know.(152)
KELLYANNE CONWAY:不,我不知道。

I don't know.(153)
我不知道。

JUDY WOODRUFF: You don't know.(154)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:不知道。

I understand.(155)
我明白。

KELLYANNE CONWAY: But I don't know who -- Idon't know who will stay and who will -- and(156)
KELLYANNE CONWAY:但是我不知道谁-我不知道谁会留下,谁会-

who will go, but it certainly will have nothingto do with his testimony.(157)
谁会去,但肯定与他的证词无关。

He was here at work today.(158)
他今天在这里工作。

He and his twin brother were taking selfies.(159)
他和他的双胞胎兄弟正在拍照。

(CROSSTALK)
JUDY WOODRUFF: And...(160)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:还有...

(CROSSTALK)
KELLYANNE CONWAY: ... news reporter tweetedout a picture of them.(161)
KELLYANNE CONWAY:...新闻记者在推特上发布了他们的照片。

JUDY WOODRUFF: And, finally, very quickly,still the posture of the White House that(162)
JUDY WOODRUFF:最后,很快,白宫的姿态仍然是

individuals like the White House acting chiefof staff, the secretary of state should not(163)
像白宫代理参谋长这样的人,国务卿不应该

cooperate, should not testify?(164)
合作,不应该作证吗?

KELLYANNE CONWAY: Our White House counselsaid in an October 8 letter, Judy, that this(165)
KELLYANNE CONWAY:我们的白宫律师在10月8日的信件Judy中说,

is an unconstitutional, an illegal proceeding,and that we don't feel we should comply with(166)
是违宪的,非法的程序,我们认为我们不应该遵守

it.(167)
它。

And the other reason is that, in this country,even in -- even in a circus-like hearing that(168)
另一个原因是,在这个国家,甚至在-像马戏团般的听证会中,

you're seeing in front of you, which is notrooted in the rule of law, you don't have(169)
您看到的是眼前的事情,这不植根于法治,您没有

to testify to prove that you're innocent.(170)
作证以证明您是无辜的。

That's not the way this works.(171)
那不是工作方式。

Look, I think, if it ever gets to the Senate,you will see a real trial, and it will be(172)
你看,我想,如果能到参议院,你会看到一次真正的审判,这将是

more familiar to the American people, whoare accustomed to trials, who can look at(173)
习惯审判的美国人民更熟悉

that and say, OK, now I get it, witnesses,evidence.(174)
然后说,好的,现在我得到了,证人,证据。

The president of the United States can't evenhave his own attorney in these hearings.(175)
在这些听证会上,美国总统甚至没有自己的律师。

That strikes a lot of Americans as unfair.(176)
这使很多美国人感到不公平。

And I think that's why you're seeing the pollsgo against approval of this impeachment inquiry.(177)
我认为这就是为什么您看到民意调查不赞成这项弹inquiry调查的原因。

JUDY WOODRUFF: It would be different in theSenate.(178)
朱迪·伍德鲁夫:参议院情况会有所不同。

Kellyanne Conway at the White House, we thankyou.(179)
白宫的凯莉安·康威(Kellyanne Conway),谢谢。

KELLYANNE CONWAY: Thank you, Judy.(180)
KELLYANNE CONWAY:谢谢Judy。


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