Trump's intervention in military legal cases sparks debate
2019-11-18 00:00:00


AMNA NAWAZ: Late Friday, President Trump intervenedin the legal cases of three U.S. service members,(1)
阿玛·纳瓦兹(AMNA NAWAZ):周五晚些时候,特朗普总统干预了三名美国军人的法律案件,

all of whom had been accused of war crimes.(2)
所有这些人都被指控犯有战争罪。

Against the advice of the Pentagon, the presidentpardoned two of the men and reinstated the(3)
在五角大楼的建议下,总统赦免了其中两名男子,并恢复了

rank of the third.(4)
第三名。

As William Brangham reports, these cases haveignited a debate about justice in war and(5)
正如威廉·布朗汉姆(William Brangham)报道的那样,这些案件引发了关于战争和

whether these moves undercut the military'sown legal system.(6)
这些举动是否削弱了军方自身的法律体系。

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: That's right, Amna.(7)
威廉·布朗汉姆:没错,安娜。

Despite the objections of some senior officialsin the Pentagon, President Trump believed(8)
尽管五角大楼一些高级官员表示反对,但特朗普总统认为

these men had been wronged by military justice,and so he stepped in.(9)
这些人被军事司法所冤wrong,于是他介入了。

In a statement issued Friday, the White Housesaid: "For more than 200 years, presidents(10)
白宫在周五发表的声明中说:“ 200多年来,总统

have used their authority to offer secondchances to deserving individuals, including(11)
利用自己的权威为应得的个人提供了第二次机会,包括

those in uniform who have served our country."(12)
为我们国家服务的穿制服的人。”

The first pardon went to Army Lieutenant ClintLorance, who in 2013 was convicted of second-degree(13)
第一次赦免是陆军中尉克林特·洛朗斯,他在2013年被判二级学位

murder for ordering members of his platoonto shoot several Afghan men approaching on(14)
谋杀,命令其排开枪射击几名接近阿富汗的男子

motorcycles.(15)
摩托车。

Lorance had been sentenced to 19 years inprison.(16)
洛朗斯已被判处19年徒刑。

The second pardon was for Army Major MathewGolsteyn, a highly decorated Special Forces(17)
第二次赦免是针对陆军少校马修·高斯泰因(Mathew Golsteyn),这是一位装饰精美的特种部队

officer who later admitted to killing andburning the body of a suspected Taliban bomb-maker(18)
军官后来承认杀害并燃烧了一名塔利班可疑炸弹制造者的尸体

in Afghanistan.(19)
在阿富汗。

He was to go on trial next year.(20)
他将于明年接受审判。

The third case involved NAVY Seal Eddie Gallagher,another highly decorated man who earlier this(21)
第三起案件涉及海军海豹埃迪·加拉格尔,另一位极富盛名的男子

year was acquitted of killing a suspectedteenage ISIS fighter.(22)
年因杀害一名疑似ISIS青少年战斗机而无罪释放。

Gallagher was demoted, though, because heposed with the dead boy's body in a photograph.(23)
不过,加拉格尔被降职,因为他与死去的男孩的尸体合影留念。

President Trump reversed that demotion.(24)
特朗普总统扭转了降级的局面。

Joining me now are two people with very differentviews on the president's moves.(25)
现在加入我的是两个人,对总统的举动有非常不同的看法。

Retired Lieutenant Colonel David Gurfein hada 25-year career in the Marines.(26)
退休的中校David Gurfein上校在海军陆战队工作了25年。

He is CEO of United American Patriots, whichis an advocacy group that supports service(27)
他是美国爱国者组织(United American Patriots)的首席执行官,该组织是一个支持服务的倡导组织

personnel when they get into legal trouble.(28)
人员遇到法律麻烦时。

And retired Lieutenant Colonel Rachel Vanlandinghamhad a 20-year career in the Air Force as a(29)
退休的Rachel Vanlandingham中校在空军工作了20年,

lawyer.(30)
律师。

She's now a professor at Southwestern LawSchool, where she teaches criminal law, constitutional(31)
她现在是西南法学院的教授,在那里她教授刑法,宪法

criminal procedure, and national securitylaw.(32)
刑事诉讼程序和国家安全法。

Welcome to you both.(33)
欢迎你们俩。

Rachel, to you first.(34)
雷切尔,首先给你。

The president in his statement on Friday saidthat these three men were deserving of this(35)
总统在周五的声明中说,这三个人应得的

pardon, deserving of mercy, as he said elsewherein the statement.(36)
如他在声明中其他地方所说的,请原谅,应仁慈。

I know you have been very critical of thepresident's move.(37)
我知道你对总统的举动非常批评。

What is your concern?(38)
你有什么事

LT.(39)
LT。

COL.(40)
COL。

RACHEL VANLANDINGHAM (RET.), SouthwesternLaw School: My concern, I think -- I hope(41)
西南法学院RACHEL VANLANDINGHAM(RET。):我的关注,我想-我希望

everyone is deserving of mercy, but by pardoningthese three individuals, he undermines not(42)
每个人都应该得到怜悯,但是通过赦免这三个人,他破坏了

military -- not just the military justicesystem.(43)
军事-不仅是军事司法系统。

He undermines his own military commanders.(44)
他破坏了自己的军事指挥官。

In the military, it is senior-level commandersthat make the decision to bring charges against(45)
在军队中,是由高级指挥官决定对

one of their subordinates.(46)
他们的下属之一。

It's not lawyers.(47)
不是律师

And guess what?(48)
你猜怎么着?

In the military, it's also military members,those who understand and appreciate the operational(49)
在军队中,也是军事人员,他们了解并欣赏军事行动

complexities of the battlefield, that sitin judgment of their peers.(50)
战场的复杂性,这取决于同龄人的判断。

So by pardoning these individuals and sayingthey're deserving of mercy, what is he saying(51)
因此,通过赦免这些人并说他们应受怜悯,他在说什么

about the commanders and the fellow militarymembers that found these three -- at least(52)
关于找到这三个人的指挥官和其他军事成员的信息-至少

-- that two of the -- excuse me -- that wehad two convicted war criminals earlier this(53)
-那两个-对不起-我们早些时候有两名定罪的战争罪犯

year that were pardoned.(54)
宽恕的一年。

We have Lieutenant Lorance, a convicted warcriminal, pardoned, and Golsteyn's war crimes(55)
我们有被判有罪的战争罪犯洛朗中尉,赦免和戈尔斯坦的战争罪行

court-martial that's been aborted.(56)
军事法庭被中止了。

And so what message is President Trump sendingto the folks that sat throughout all these(57)
因此,特朗普总统向所有坐在这儿的人们传达了什么信息

processes?(58)
过程?

And what message is he sending to those individualsthat are adhering to the commands of their(59)
他向那些遵守他们命令的个人发送了什么信息

senior leadership, that are adhering to theproper and honorable way to fight?(60)
高级领导层,是否坚持正确和光荣的战斗方式?

I'm not sure this is about individuals beingdeserving of mercy.(61)
我不确定这是否与个人应得的怜悯有关。

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: David Gurfein, there's alot there that she's arguing.(62)
WILLIAM BRANGHAM:David Gurfein,她在争论很多。

One of the points she's arguing is that theseguys were tried by a military court, by military(63)
她争辩的观点之一是,这些人是由军事法庭,军事法庭审判的。

prosecutors, by a jury, theoretically, oftheir peers or higher in rank.(64)
从理论上讲,由陪审团组成的检察官。

You think that the president did the rightthing making this pardon.(65)
您认为总统做这件事是正确的。

What do you -- give me the argument there.(66)
你是什​​么-在那给我争论。

LT.(67)
LT。

COL.(68)
COL。

DAVID GURFEIN (RET.), United American Patriots:Absolutely.(69)
大卫·古尔芬(RET。),美国爱国者队:绝对。

The president stepped in.(70)
总统介入。

And it's not about the combatant commanders.(71)
这与战斗指挥官无关。

It's what happens after that call is made,and it's about the individual's rights.(72)
这是在发出呼叫之后发生的事情,并且关系到个人的权利。

And this is one of those things where we haveseen across the board prosecutorial misconduct,(73)
这是我们普遍发现的检控不当行为之一,

we have seen investigator abuse, we have seenunlawful command influence.(74)
我们看到了调查人员的虐待,我们看到了非法的指挥影响。

And we can go into detail in every one ofthese cases.(75)
在每种情况下,我们都可以详细介绍。

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: But you believe, in allthree of those cases, those types of offenses(76)
WILLIAM BRANGHAM:但是,您认为在所有这三种情况下,这些类型的犯罪

occurred?(77)
发生?

LT.(78)
LT。

COL.(79)
COL。

DAVID GURFEIN: Absolutely.(80)
大卫·古尔芬(David Gurfein):好的。

And we can go into details with every singleone.(81)
而且,我们可以每一个细节。

But we have seen exculpatory information thathas been hidden.(82)
但是,我们已经看到了隐藏的专有信息。

It was not brought to bear.(83)
它没有被承担。

We have seen lies told by senior officersto protect the perception of the institution(84)
我们已经看到高级官员撒谎以保护人们对机构的看法

and also perhaps to protect their own careers,where you have had appeals which should be(85)
也许还为了保护自己的职业,在您提出上诉时,

identifying all these wrongdoings that werenot even allowed to go forward.(86)
找出所有这些不允许做的错误行为。

Biometric evidence proved that the so-calledcivilians that were ordered to be killed by(87)
生物特征证据证明,被命令杀害的所谓平民

Clint Lorance were not civilians.(88)
克林特·洛朗斯不是平民。

These were enemy combatants.(89)
这些是敌方战斗人员。

And when brought to the appeals court, theysaid they would not dive into the abyss of(90)
当他们被带到上诉法院时,他们说他们不会潜入海底世界的深渊。

biometrics, which is bizarre.(91)
生物识别,这很奇怪。

See, this is where -- how we solve cases withDNA and skin cells where -- coming off of(92)
看,这是-我们如何解决DNA和皮肤细胞的情况-

IEDs and improvised explosive devices thathave killed Americans prior.(93)
简易爆炸装置和简易爆炸装置曾使美国人丧生。

These were enemy combatants, make no mistakeabout it.(94)
这些是敌方战斗人员,不要误会。

Same in Mat Golsteyn's case, where he ambushedand killed an enemy combatant, and next thing(95)
在Mat Golsteyn的案子中,他遭到伏击并杀死了一名敌方战斗员,

you know, he's being brought up on murdercharges.(96)
你知道,他因谋杀罪被提起。

And it went and was investigated.(97)
它去了,并进行了调查。

And in that investigation, they found no evidenceto support this allegation, other than Mat(98)
在那次调查中,他们发现除了Mat之外,没有证据支持这一指控。

said, he killed an enemy combatant, whichmany of us have done.(99)
说,他杀死了一名敌方战斗员,我们许多人都这样做了。

That is not a crime.(100)
那不是犯罪。

And so they still didn't like it.(101)
因此,他们仍然不喜欢它。

They didn't like the rumor of it and thathe was talking openly about this.(102)
他们不喜欢这个谣言,而他正在公开谈论这个。

They stripped him of his Army Special Forcestab.(103)
他们剥夺了他的“陆军特种部队”标签。

They took his Silver Star.(104)
他们拿走了他的银星。

And the next thing you know, they held him.(105)
接下来你知道,他们抱住了他。

For over nearly 10 years, they have had thisover him and his family's head and continuously(106)
在将近10年的时间里,他们一直在他和他的家人的头上

said, hey, we're going to get to this.(107)
说,嘿,我们要解决这个问题。

And they kept bringing him on.(108)
他们一直把他带上。

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Rachel, I'd like you tofollow up on some of this.(109)
WILLIAM BRANGHAM:Rachel,我想请您跟进一些。

But, again, David is making the point that,in each of these cases, there was some serious(110)
但是,大卫再次指出,在每种情况下,都有一些严重的

misconduct.(111)
不当行为。

You were a JAG lawyer.(112)
您是JAG律师。

You prosecuted cases like this.(113)
您起诉了这样的案件。

We don't have time to litigate all...(114)
我们没有时间对所有案件进行诉讼...

LT.(115)
LT。

COL.(116)
COL。

RACHEL VANLANDINGHAM: I defended cases.(117)
RACHEL VANLANDINGHAM:我为案件辩护。

I -- of course we don't.(118)
我-当然不是。

I was an appellate defense counsel as well.(119)
我也是上诉辩护律师。

And my heart is with the defense.(120)
我的心是防守。

But I'm also -- my heart is also with therule of law.(121)
但我也是-我的心也依法治国。

And the rule of law involves process.(122)
法治涉及过程。

There are numerous appellate courts establishedto ensure that legal errors, if they do occur,(123)
建立了许多上诉法院,以确保发生法律错误,

and travesties of justice, if they occur,are remedied.(124)
司法的诡计,如果发生的话,将得到纠正。

Lieutenant Lorance's case regarding exculpatoryevidence that was supposedly withheld, it(125)
劳伦斯中尉的一案涉嫌扣留了原罪证据,

didn't matter who those individuals were.(126)
那些人是谁都没关系。

And that's what the Army Court of CriminalAppeals held.(127)
这就是陆军刑事上诉法院的判决。

They said there was overwhelming evidencethat not only he committed murder; he committed(128)
他们说,有压倒性的证据表明,不仅他犯了谋杀罪,而且还有谋杀罪。他承诺

attempted murder, obstructed justice, solicitedlies, and made -- and threatened individuals.(129)
企图谋杀,妨碍司法公正,撒谎,制造和威胁个人。

Those individuals that he killed were foundby overwhelming evidence, by the testimony(130)
通过压倒性证据,证词发现了他杀死的那些人

of his own subordinates, to have posed absolutelyno threat to him or to his teammates.(131)
自己的下属,绝对不会对他或他的队友构成威胁。

They were on foot walking back to their motorcyclesat the direction of the Afghan National Army,(132)
他们步行向阿富汗国民军的方向走回摩托车,

who commanded them to do so.(133)
谁命令他们这样做。

Yet Lieutenant Lorance ordered them to bekilled and fired upon, ordered them to be(134)
劳伦斯中尉命令将他们杀死并开除,命令他们被杀。

murdered, despite their lack of threat.(135)
尽管他们没有威胁,但还是被谋杀了。

He knew of no evidence at the time that they-- that they were any type of any combatant.(136)
当时他没有证据表明他们是任何类型的战斗员。

He was only given the orders to ensure thathe protected his troops against those who(137)
仅下达了命令,以确保他保护自己的部队不受那些

posed some type of imminent threat.(138)
构成了某种迫在眉睫的威胁。

And all of his troops testified very clearlyto other fellow military members that those(139)
他的所有部队都非常清楚地向其他军方作证,

individuals did not pose a threat and theywere gunned down indiscriminately.(140)
个人没有构成威胁,他们被滥杀。

And Lieutenant Lorance created further Talibanthreats and created greater risk for the Americans(141)
洛朗斯中尉进一步制造了塔利班威胁,并给美国人带来了更大的风险

that were honorably serving there.(142)
在那里光荣地服务。

You know why?(143)
你知道为什么?

The third individual that he tried to murderactually wound up going and then joining the(144)
他试图谋杀的第三个人实际上结束了,然后加入了

Taliban and committing attacks, because heturned -- because he knew that the Americans(145)
塔利班之所以发动袭击,是因为他转身-因为他知道美国人

were going to go after every innocent Afghanas well, at least according to Lieutenant(146)
至少根据中尉的说法,他们也会去追捕每一个无辜的阿富汗人

Lorance.(147)
洛兰斯

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Again, I know it's verydifficult.(148)
WILLIAM BRANGHAM:再次,我知道这很困难。

And our viewers are probably somewhat confusedby the sort of avalanche of details we're(149)
我们的观众可能对我们所散发出的大量细节感到困惑

getting into here.(150)
进入这里。

I'd like to step back, David, for a momentand look at a criticism that some people have(151)
大卫,我想退后一会儿,看看有人提出的批评。

made, veterans primarily, that, in pardoningthese three gentlemen -- again, putting aside,(152)
主要是从退伍军人那里得到的,这是在赦免这三位先生时-再说一遍,

slightly, the specifics of what they havebeen accused of -- that this gives free rein(153)
稍微说一下他们被指控的细节-这样可以自由控制

to the occasional bad actor out in the warzone and that the rules of war don't apply(154)
偶尔出现在战区的坏演员,而且战争规则不适用

if you can exert enough political pressureand get your case thrown out.(155)
如果您可以施加足够的政治压力并解决您的问题。

What do you make of that criticism?(156)
您如何看待这种批评?

LT.(157)
LT。

COL.(158)
COL。

DAVID GURFEIN: I think it's interesting thatwe talked about, in this situation, that Clint(159)
戴维·古尔芬(David Gurfein):在这种情况下,我们谈到克林特(Clint)是很有趣的

Lorance killed civilians.(160)
洛朗斯杀死了平民。

The biometrics prove they were not civilians.(161)
生物特征证明他们不是平民。

So the next argument is, well, he didn't knowthat.(162)
因此,下一个论点是,他不知道。

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: OK.(163)
威廉·布朗汉姆:好的。

I...(164)
一世...

LT.(165)
LT。

COL.(166)
COL。

DAVID GURFEIN: And so I'd like to just, ifI may -- but he did act within accordance(167)
戴维·古尔芬(David Gurfein):因此,我愿意,但我确实愿意

with the rules of engagement.(168)
与交战规则。

And of all the things that he was found guiltyof, violating the rules of engagement, he(169)
在他被判有罪的所有事情中,违反了交战规则,他

was found not guilty.(170)
被判无罪。

So everything that's being said here abouthow he acted inappropriately, his peers found(171)
同行们发现,这里所说的一切都是关于他的不当行为的

that he did not act inappropriately.(172)
他没有不当行为。

He acted, and all of his soldiers came homealive.(173)
他行动了,所有士兵都活着回家。

(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: OK, I hear what you're saying,but what about this larger question of the(174)
WILLIAM BRANGHAM:好的,我听到您在说什么,但是关于这个更大的问题呢?

criticism that many veterans, people who haveserved in Iraq and Afghanistan and earlier(175)
批评许多退伍军人,曾在伊拉克,阿富汗和更早时期服役的人

combat missions, that this sends a terriblemessage, that the rules of war sometimes are(176)
战斗任务,这发出了可怕的信息,战争规则有时是

not going to apply?(177)
不会申请?

LT.(178)
LT。

COL.(179)
COL。

DAVID GURFEIN: No, what's -- the message itsends is that, when you act in combat, and(180)
大卫·古尔芬(David GURFEIN):不,这是什么—它发出的信息是,当您在战斗中行动时,

you make the right decision, or even if youmake the wrong decision, that you will be(181)
您做出正确的决定,或者即使您做出了错误的决定,您也会

treated fairly, and you will receive yourrights.(182)
受到公平对待,您将获得您的权利。

And this is where our warriors, they swearto support and defend our rights, and yet(183)
这就是我们的勇士们发誓支持和捍卫我们的权利的地方,然而

they don't get the same protection that perhapsan individual who would go into a school and(184)
他们得到的保护可能不及可能会上学的个人,

gun down children with intent is getting.(185)
放下有意图的孩子。

So, here we're seeing time and time againwhere these warriors, they're being thrown(186)
所以,在这里我们一次又一次地看到这些战士被扔到哪里

under the bus for political reasons.(187)
由于政治原因在公共汽车下。

And what's interesting is, we saw right afterClint Lorance's case a patrol outside Bagram,(188)
有趣的是,我们在克林特·洛朗斯(Clint Lorance)案发生后立即在巴格拉姆(Bagram)外面巡逻,

Afghanistan, they knew that Clint Lorancegot put away for murder.(189)
在阿富汗,他们知道克林特·洛朗斯因谋杀而被释放。

And a motorcycle came towards their patrol.(190)
一辆摩托车驶向他们的巡逻队。

And they had to make the decision what todo.(191)
他们必须做出决定该怎么做。

They chose not to engage.(192)
他们选择不参与。

Those four individuals are dead.(193)
那四个人已经死了。

Our warriors should not have to question whetheror not they're going to go to Leavenworth(194)
我们的勇士们不必质疑他们是否要去莱文沃思

for pulling the trigger and doing the rightthing at the right time for the right reasons.(195)
以正确的理由拉动扳机并在正确的时间做正确的事情。

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I realize there are so manycomplicated details in all of these cases.(196)
WILLIAM BRANGHAM:我意识到在所有这些情况下都有很多复杂的细节。

And I'm sorry we can't get into more of thesehere tonight.(197)
很抱歉,今晚我们无法在此介绍更多此类内容。

But, David Gurfein, Rachel Vanlandingham,thank you both very much for being here.(198)
但是,David Gurfein和Rachel Vanlandingham非常感谢你们俩的光临。

LT.(199)
LT。

COL.(200)
COL。

DAVID GURFEIN: Thank you.(201)
大卫·古尔芬(David GURFEIN):谢谢。

Appreciate it.(202)
欣赏它。

LT.(203)
LT。

COL.(204)
COL。

RACHEL VANLANDINGHAM: Thank you so much.(205)
RACHEL VANLANDINGHAM:非常感谢。


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