Why Kremlin mole story is 'disruptive' to U.S. intelligence
2019-09-11 00:00:00


JUDY WOODRUFF: Reports that the U.S. extracteda Russian spy from the Kremlin have dominated(1)
JUDY WOODRUFF:据报道,美国从克里姆林宫拯救了一名俄罗斯间谍

the headlines over the past few days.(2)
过去几天的头条新闻。

The news sparks discussion about the sourcesand methods used to develop the U.S. intelligence(3)
这一消息引发了有关用于发展美国情报的来源和方法的讨论

community's assessment of Moscow's interferencein the 2016 election.(4)
社区对莫斯科干预2016年大选的评估。

Our Yamiche Alcindor has more.(5)
我们的Yamiche Alcindor有更多。

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: In early 2017, the U.S.intelligence community made a startling accusation:(6)
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:2017年初,美国情报界发出了令人吃惊的指责:

Russian President Vladimir Putin personallydirected a campaign to influence the 2016(7)
俄罗斯总统弗拉基米尔·普京亲自指导了一场影响2016年的活动

presidential election.(8)
总统选举。

They made that conclusion with -- quote -- "highconfidence."(9)
他们用 - 引用 - “高度自信”得出了这个结论。

That is the kind of qualification reservedto the most solid intelligence.(10)
这是为最坚实的情报保留的那种资格。

That led to years of speculation about whator who provided that confident assertion.(11)
这引发了多年来关于什么或谁提供这种自信主张的猜测。

This week, a series of reports emerged abouta Russian asset whom the CIA extricated.(12)
本周,出现了一系列关于俄罗斯资产的报道,中央情报局将其解散。

The Washington Post reported that the sourceis living in the Washington, D.C., area.(13)
据“华盛顿邮报”报道,该消息来源居住在华盛顿特区。

To discuss these revelations, I'm joined byAndrew Weiss.(14)
为了讨论这些启示,我加入​​了Andrew Weiss。

He oversees Russia research at the CarnegieEndowment for International Peace.(15)
他负责监督卡内基国际和平基金会的研究。

Thanks so much for joining me, Andrew.(16)
非常感谢加入我,安德鲁。

What do you make of the fact that all of thisinformation about this Russian informant has(17)
你对这个俄罗斯线人的所有信息都有这样的事实

been made so public?(18)
是如此公开?

ANDREW WEISS, Carnegie Endowment for InternationalPeace: There's something here that doesn't(19)
ANDREW WEISS,卡内基国际和平基金会:这里有一些东西没有

add up.(20)
加起来。

First off, it's a problem to see this kindof information being talked about publicly.(21)
首先,看到这种信息被公开谈论是一个问题。

It goes to the heart of what our intelligencecommunity is about, which is protecting the(22)
它涉及我们的情报界所关注的核心,即保护世界

sources and methods they use to gather sensitiveinformation.(23)
他们用来收集敏感信息的来源和方法。

Setting that aside, what we see is a lot ofswirl right now.(24)
除此之外,我们现在看到的是很多漩涡。

Is this person high-level?(25)
这个人是高级别的吗?

Is this person the bag carrier?(26)
这个人是包包吗?

Is he the person who basically helped runthe motor pool for the Russian ambassador(27)
他是那个基本上为俄罗斯大使帮助运行摩托车的人吗?

in Washington?(28)
在华盛顿?

So there's a lot of information that is beingdumped out there that doesn't fully point(29)
所以有很多信息被抛弃,并没有完全指出

in the picture of someone who was high-level.(30)
在一个高级别的人的照片中。

What it suggests is that it is someone whowas in the know and who was in policy-making(31)
它的建议是,这是一个知情人和政策制定者

circles in the Kremlin.(32)
在克里姆林宫的圈子。

And that could have been very valuable forU.S. intelligence.(33)
这对美国情报来说非常有价值。

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: How unusual is it for theU.S. to infiltrate the inner circle of the(34)
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:美国渗透到内心的圈子是多么不寻常

Russian president?(35)
俄罗斯总统?

And what does it mean that that asset couldhave been lost?(36)
那资产本可以丢失是什么意思?

And how might the U.S.' ability to gatherinformation in Russia be impacted by that?(37)
美国在俄罗斯收集信息的能力如何受到影响呢?

ANDREW WEISS: We don't know about what kindof sources the United States government currently(38)
ANDREW WEISS:我们不知道美国政府目前有哪些来源

has or has had in the past in Russian rulingcircles.(39)
在过去的俄罗斯统治集团中曾经或曾经拥有过。

It's a very closed society.(40)
这是一个非常封闭的社会。

Putin is a notoriously circumspect person.(41)
普京是一个臭名昭着的谨慎的人。

The Russians are very good at protecting sensitiveinformation about their foreign policy activities,(42)
俄罗斯人非常善于保护有关其外交政策活动的敏感信息,

including their interference in the 2016 presidentialelection.(43)
包括他们干预2016年总统大选。

What we do know is the message this sendsto the world, which is that the United States(44)
我们所知道的是这个传递给世界的信息,即美国

doesn't do a good job of protecting informationabout people who assist us.(45)
没有很好地保护有关协助我们的人的信息。

And so the fact of this information comingout, I think, sends a very negative signal(46)
因此,我认为这些信息的出现发出了非常消极的信号

to people who might want to work with theUnited States going forward.(47)
对于那些可能希望与美国继续合作的人们。

It's a very, I think, disruptive set of revelations,not because it necessarily blinds us in Russia,(48)
这是一个非常,我认为,破坏性的启示,不是因为它必然使我们在俄罗斯蒙羞,

but it just really sort of casts a negativecloud over the U.S. intelligence-collecting(49)
但它只是对美国的情报收集产生负面影响

apparatus.(50)
仪器。

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: President Trump has tweetedout an image of surveillance that is widely(51)
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:特朗普总统在推特上发布了广泛的监控形象

believed to be classified.(52)
相信是分类的。

He has also shared sensitive information withRussian officials when they were visiting(53)
他还在访问时与俄罗斯官员分享了敏感信息

the White House.(54)
白宫。

The CIA is pushing back and saying that itwould be inaccurate to report that anything(55)
美国中央情报局正在推迟,并表示报告任何事情是不准确的

the president has done has impacted theirtaking -- possibly taking out a source from(56)
总统已经做了影响他们的采取 - 可能从中取出一个来源

a foreign country.(57)
国外。

But that being said, what do you make of thepresident's actions?(58)
但话虽如此,你对总统的行为有何看法?

And how could they have at all impacted theU.S.' ability to protect classified information?(59)
他们怎么会影响美国保护机密信息的能力呢?

ANDREW WEISS: Well, I should emphasize, thenegative cloud here really is not really on(60)
ANDREW WEISS:我应该强调,这里的负面云真的不是真的

the U.S. intelligence community.(61)
美国情报界。

It's on President Trump.(62)
这是在特朗普总统。

From the very first meeting he had with aRussian official in the Oval Office, with(63)
从他与椭圆形办公室的俄罗斯官员的第一次会面开始

the Russian foreign minister, he was basicallyretailing secrets.(64)
俄罗斯外交部长,他基本上是零售的秘密。

He was sharing information that we had gottenfrom a foreign government, in this case Israel,(65)
他正在分享我们从外国政府获得的信息,在这种情况下,以色列,

dealing with a terrorist threat involvingISIS.(66)
处理涉及伊斯兰国的恐怖主义威胁。

So, he has basically thrown convention outthe window.(67)
所以,他基本上抛弃了窗外的约定。

By virtue of his office, he is able to declassifyinformation basically on a whim.(68)
凭借他的办公室,他能够基本上随心所欲地解密信息。

The problem is, the president doesn't seemto understand the consequences of that.(69)
问题是,总统似乎并不了解其后果。

And day in, day out, President Trump basicallytrashes our allies.(70)
特朗普总统日复一日地基本上破坏了我们的盟友。

He said something in a campaign appearancethe other day, where he just saying, our allies(71)
前几天他在竞选活动中说了些什么,他只是说,我们的盟友

are worse than our enemies.(72)
比我们的敌人更糟糕。

And he doesn't seem to understand that somuch of the information the United States(73)
他似乎并不了解美国这么多的信息

receives from partner intelligence servicescomes from our allies and it comes from governments(74)
来自合作伙伴情报部门的服务来自我们的盟友,它来自政府

around the world, who basically see theirinterests as aligned with us.(75)
在世界各地,他们基本上认为他们的利益与我们一致。

And so what we have got right now is a completelyundisciplined and disruptive presidency, which(76)
因此,我们现在所拥有的是一个完全没有纪律和破坏性的总统职位

is going to have lasting consequences forhow we cooperate with people the world over.(77)
对我们如何与全世界人民合作产生持久影响。

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: You served on the NationalSecurity Councils of past administrations.(78)
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:你曾在过去的政府的国家安全委员会任职。

There are very strict guidelines to safeguardsources.(79)
保护来源有非常严格的指导方针。

Tell us about those guidelines and why theyare put in place.(80)
告诉我们这些指导原则以及它们的实施原因。

ANDREW WEISS: Well, the protections are inplace for a bunch of reasons.(81)
ANDREW WEISS:嗯,由于一系列原因,保护措施已经到位。

They're to prevent disclosure of sensitiveinformation involving the sources and methods(82)
它们是为了防止披露涉及来源和方法的敏感信息

for our intelligence collection.(83)
为我们的情报收集。

They're also there to protect, as we weresaying a few moments ago, the sources of that(84)
正如我们刚才所说的那样,它们也是为了保护它们的来源

information, so that they don't face harmor inadvertent disclosure.(85)
信息,以免他们面临伤害或无意泄露。

What we normally have, I think, tried to doinside U.S. government circles is allow the(86)
我认为,我们通常所拥有的,试图在美国政府圈内进行的是允许的

intelligence collectors -- intelligence collectorsto do their thing and the policy-makers to(87)
情报收集者 - 情报收集者做他们的事情和政策制定者

do their thing.(88)
做他们的事。

At times, there's a need for policy-makersto have a little better sense of what might(89)
有时,政策制定者需要更好地了解可能的情况

motivate someone to share information, whatthe reasons were or how this information was(90)
激励某人分享信息,原因是什么或这些信息是如何产生的

collected.(91)
集。

But, you know, up to now, I have never readinformation like this in the press about,(92)
但是,你知道,到目前为止,我从未在媒体上看过这样的信息,

you know, things that involve, you know, avery important event in U.S. foreign policy(93)
你知道,这些事情涉及美国外交政策中非常重要的事件

and national security.(94)
和国家安全。

It's -- this is really, as I was saying earlier,an unprecedented event to have this level(95)
这是 - 正如我之前所说的那样,这是一个史无前例的事件

of disclosure and this level of disruption.(96)
披露和这种程度的破坏。

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: An unprecedented event.(97)
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:前所未有的盛会。

Let's now talk about Russia and its response.(98)
我们现在谈谈俄罗斯及其回应。

What do you make of Russia's response?(99)
你对俄罗斯的回应有何看法?

And how is it comparing to past responseswhere spies have been revealed?(100)
如何与间谍揭晓的过去回应相比较?

ANDREW WEISS: So, the Russian government takesa very hard line on these things.(101)
ANDREW WEISS:所以,俄罗斯政府对这些事情采取了非常强硬的立场。

And Putin himself tends to speak in a verycold-blooded and rather chilling fashion about,(102)
普京本人倾向于以一种非常冷血和相当令人不寒而栗的方式说话,

traitors need to be wiped out.(103)
叛徒需要被消灭。

Traitors need to pay the price for their conduct.(104)
叛徒需要为他们的行为付出代价。

In this case, the Russian government has donesomething very different.(105)
在这种情况下,俄罗斯政府做了一些非常不同的事情。

They have basically said, this guy was a joker.(106)
他们基本上已经说过,这家伙是个小丑。

He had some sort of role here.(107)
他在这里扮演了某种角色。

He certainly wasn't a high-level adviser toPresident Putin.(108)
他当然不是普京总统的高级顾问。

They basically disparaged the initial Westernpress reporting on the subject.(109)
他们基本上贬低了西方最初关于这个问题的新闻报道。

But what they have also done at the same timeis tried to say, we never did anything anyway,(110)
但他们同时也做了什么试图说,我们从来没有做过任何事情,

so this is all just a compounding of, youknow, unfair and malicious slander aimed at(111)
所以这只是一种复杂的,你知道的,是针对的不公平和恶意诽谤

us.(112)
我们。

That also just doesn't hold a lot of water.(113)
这也只是没有很多水。

But, as a result, what you see is a mockery.(114)
但是,结果,你所看到的是一种嘲弄。

And I think the mockery does have a chillingundercurrent to it.(115)
而且我认为这种嘲弄确实会产生令人不寒而栗的暗流。

There was a cartoon on one of the Russianstate news agencies last night, and it basically(116)
昨晚在俄罗斯的一家新闻机构上发了一张卡通片,基本上就是这样

has the mole showing up in the Oval Officepopping up in Donald Trump's office and saying,(117)
在唐纳德特朗普的办公室里,椭圆形办公室里出现了痣,说道,

you burned me, basically.(118)
你基本上烧了我。

You were the one who ratted me out.(119)
你是那个让我失望的人。

So the government is sending a message toRussian officialdom that, we are all watching(120)
所以政府正在向俄罗斯官员发出一条信息,我们都在关注

you very closely.(121)
你非常密切。

Don't make any mistakes.(122)
不要犯任何错误。

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Well, thank you so muchfor being here.(123)
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:好的,非常感谢你来到这里。

These are certainly extraordinary revelations,Andrew Weiss.(124)
这些肯定是非凡的启示,安德鲁韦斯。

ANDREW WEISS: Thank you so much.(125)
ANDREW WEISS:非常感谢你。


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