Tillerson is one of a wave of departures. Why is Trump cleaning house?
2018-03-13 00:00:00


And for insights now into what led the presidentto shake up his national security team, we(1)
我们现在深入了解总统是如何动摇国家安全团队的

are joined by Robert Costa, host of PBS' "WashingtonWeek" and national political reporter for(2)
加入PBS的“华盛顿周”和国家政治记者罗伯特科斯塔

The Washington Post, and Josh Lederman, whocovers the State Department for the Associated(3)
华盛顿邮报和Josh Lederman,负责协调国务院

Press.(4)
按。

Robert, to you first.(5)
罗伯特,先给你。

We have been hearing for months that Rex Tillersoneither might be forced out or might resign(6)
几个月来我们一直在听说Rex Tillerson可能被迫退出或者可能会辞职

on his own.(7)
靠他自己。

What led to this right now?(8)
是什么导致了现在呢?

ROBERT COSTA: There wasn't an event that leddirectly to this decision, Judy.(9)
罗伯特·科斯塔:没有一件事直接导致了这个决定,朱迪。

It was a long-simmering frustration by thepresident with his secretary of state.(10)
这是总统和他的国务卿长期憋气的挫败感。

They saw the world in different ways.(11)
他们以不同的方式看待世界。

And the president really wanted to asserthimself more on foreign policy.(12)
总统真的想在外交政策上更加坚持自己的观点。

He didn't like delegating decisions to Tillerson,a longtime executive at ExxonMobil.(13)
他不喜欢将决策委托给埃克森美孚公司的长期执行官蒂勒森。

He wanted to move in a new direction whereforeign policy was really created inside of(14)
他希望朝着外部政策真正在其内部创造的新方向前进

the White House.(15)
白宫。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Josh Lederman, what would youadd to that?(16)
JUDY WOODRUFF:Josh Lederman,你会补充些什么?

JOSH LEDERMAN, Associated Press: I think that,over time, the fact that Tillerson and Trump(17)
美联社,美联社:我认为,随着时间的推移,蒂勒森和特朗普这个事实

were not going to be a good pair, a good partnershipbecame more and more apparent, until it was(18)
不会是一对好人,一个好的合作伙伴关系变得越来越明显,直到它成为现实

just impossible to overlook.(19)
只是不可能忽视。

And it got to the point where you had foreigngovernments that weren't even really bothering(20)
而且,这让你有一些外国政府甚至没有真正困扰

to deal with Tillerson, to interact with him,to try to make policy with him because they(21)
与蒂勒森打交道,与他互动,试图与他一起制定政策,因为他们

didn't see him as actually speaking for theTrump administration.(22)
没有把他看作是特朗普政府的实际言论。

They saw the White House, the president himself,perhaps his son-in-law, Jared Kushner.(23)
他们看到白宫,总统本人,或许是他的女婿贾里德库什纳。

And once you lose your ability to actuallydo your job in an effective way, it's time(24)
一旦你失去了以有效的方式真正做好自己的工作的能力,那就是时候了

for a change.(25)
换一个。

And that's really what we saw today.(26)
而这正是我们今天看到的。

JUDY WOODRUFF: So, Josh Lederman, just quickly,was this essentially doomed from the beginning?(27)
JUDY WOODRUFF:那么,Josh Lederman,很快就会从一开始就注定失败呢?

JOSH LEDERMAN: Well, it was doomed from rathersoon from the beginning, when it became clear(28)
JOSH LEDERMAN:呃,它很快就会从一开始就注定,当它变得清晰的时候

they had very different styles, that Trumphad different positions on the Iran deal,(29)
他们的风格截然不同,特朗普在伊朗的交易中有不同的立场,

on climate change and the Paris agreement,and other key national security priorities(30)
关于气候变化和巴黎协定以及其他国家安全重点的优先事项

than his secretary of state.(31)
比他的国务卿。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Robert Costa, why was thisdone in such a humiliating manner, letting(32)
JUDY WOODRUFF:罗伯特科斯塔,为什么这样做是以这样一种羞辱的方式让出来的

the secretary of state know just a few hoursafter he landed back after a long trip in(33)
国务卿在经过长途旅行后的几个小时内就知道了

Africa, doing it in a tweet?(34)
非洲,在鸣叫呢?

ROBERT COSTA: It's so typical of PresidentTrump to manage his Cabinet in this way.(35)
罗伯特·科斯塔:特朗普总统以这种方式管理他的内阁非常典型。

It's how he managed associates throughouthis business career.(36)
这是他在整个商业生涯中管理员工的方式。

People inside of the White House today tellme that he can be cruel, and he decided to(37)
今天在白宫内部的人告诉我,他可以是残酷的,他决定

be somewhat cruel in how he handled Tillerson,because he was angry, angry that Tillerson(38)
他在处理蒂勒森方面有些残酷,因为他生气,对蒂勒森很生气

often seemed to be out on a limb politicallyand diplomatically from the White House.(39)
在白宫的政治和外交方面似乎常常受到限制。

And he was urged by White House Chief of StaffJohn Kelly to try do it in person or at least(40)
白宫总参谋长约翰凯利敦促他亲自或至少尝试这样做

wait until Tillerson came back to the groundhere in the U.S.(41)
等到蒂勒森回到美国的这里

The president was actually tempted, officialstold me, to do it via tweet, but he generally(42)
官员告诉我,总统实际上受到诱惑,通过推特来做,但他一般

resisted doing that -- but a messy departurefor the secretary of state.(43)
抵制这样做 - 但对国务卿来说是一个混乱的离开。

JUDY WOODRUFF: I was asking, Robert, becausethe president's known for the television show(44)
JUDY WOODRUFF:我问罗伯特,因为总统以电视节目闻名

"The Apprentice," where he would fire people,but he did it to their face.(45)
“学徒”,他会在那里解雇人,但他做到了。

ROBERT COSTA: This reality television styleof governing is actually not that far from(46)
罗伯特·科斯塔:这种真实的电视风格治理实际上并不遥远

the truth.(47)
真相。

In fact, one White House official told metoday, this is really season two of the Trump(48)
事实上,一位白宫官员今天告诉我,这真是特朗普的第二季

presidency that started.(49)
总统任期开始。

The president wants to move back to his rawpolitical instincts, take more control over(50)
总统希望回到他原始的政治本能,加强控制

the government, have allies surround him inthe Cabinet.(51)
政府,盟友在内阁中包围他。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Josh Lederman, let's turn tothe man the president has chosen to replace(52)
JUDY WOODRUFF:Josh Lederman,让我们谈谈总统选择替换的人

Rex Tillerson, Mike Pompeo, now at the CIA.(53)
Rex Tillerson,Mike Pompeo,现在在CIA。

What is your read on him?(54)
你对他有什么看法?

What is expected of him changing from oneagency to the other?(55)
他希望他从一个机构转到另一个机构?

JOSH LEDERMAN: What's expected is that he'sgoing to be a more consistent ally of the(56)
JOSH LEDERMAN:预计他将会是一个更加一致的盟友

president and a more consistent backer ofthe president's own instincts.(57)
总统以及总统本能的一贯支持者。

Now, on the Iran deal, for instance, wherethere is a major decision ahead of the president,(58)
例如,在伊朗的协议中,在总统面前有重大决定的地方,

it's likely that Pompeo will find himselfmore on the same page.(59)
Pompeo很可能会发现自己更多地处于同一页面。

He's been an ardent critic of that deal, pushingthe president to back away from that deal,(60)
他是这笔交易的热心批评者,推动总统退出该交易,

whereas Tillerson had really wanted to stayin that deal.(61)
而蒂勒森真的想保持这笔交易。

But we know that Pompeo, like the president,is a more brash-talking, in-your-face kind(62)
但我们知道Pompeo和总统一样,是一种更为旷日持久的表情

of guy.(63)
的人。

He was in Congress before, so there's somefamiliarity there with folks who would be(64)
他之前在国会,所以与那些人会有一些熟悉

happy to confirm him.(65)
高兴地证实他。

And he's also someone that the president seemsto enjoy being around and likes his company.(66)
而且他也是总统似乎喜欢身边并喜欢他的公司的人。

We know that Pompeo, as CIA director, oftendelivered the president's daily briefs in(67)
我们知道庞培作为中央情报局局长经常提交总统的每日简报

person, spent a lot of time in the White House,more than many past CIA directors.(68)
人,在白宫度过了很多时间,比过去许多中央情报局局长。

And it seemed to indicate a level of comfortthat the president has surrounding himself(69)
这似乎表明了总统围绕自己的舒适程度

with Pompeo and with his advice on key issues.(70)
与Pompeo和他在关键问题上的建议。

JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Robert, you have donea fair amount of reporting on Pompeo, on his(71)
JUDY WOODRUFF:而且,罗伯特,你已经在庞培做了大量的报道

background serving in Congress, what, forsix years?(72)
在国会任职的背景,六年?

ROBERT COSTA: That's correct.(73)
罗伯特·科斯塔:这是正确的。

What a political ascent for this former Kansascongressman and ally of the Koch brothers,(74)
对于这位前堪萨斯议员和科赫兄弟的盟友来说,

the billionaire conservative family, longrespected in hawkish Republican circles.(75)
这个亿万富翁保守的家庭,在鹰派共和党的圈子中长期受到尊重。

But he become someone who ingratiated himselfwith President Trump.(76)
但他成为了与特朗普总统交心的人。

And he's really developed this rapport withthe president, because he gives the PDB.(77)
他真的与总统建立了这种关系,因为他给了PDB。

They call it the president daily brief.(78)
他们称之为总统每日简报。

That's the top-secret briefing every day.(79)
这是每天最高机密的简报。

And he gives it in person to the president.(80)
而且他亲自把它交给总统。

Because of that, they have developed thispersonality connection that really has led(81)
正因为如此,他们已经开发了这种真正引导的人格关系

to this announcement that he will be the nextsecretary of state, if confirmed.(82)
对此宣布他将成为下一任国务卿,如果证实的话。

JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Robert, I have to askyou.(83)
JUDY WOODRUFF:而且,罗伯特,我必须问你。

This departure of Rex Tillerson, secretaryof state, comes on the heels of a number of(84)
国务卿雷克斯蒂勒森的这次离职,紧随其后

other high-profile departures, just a fewdays ago, the president's chief economic adviser,(85)
就在几天前,总统的首席经济顾问其他高调离职,

Gary Cohn, out.(86)
加里科恩,出来。

That followed by a few days the departureof his communications director, Hope Hicks,(87)
接下来的几天,他的传播总监希望希克斯离开,

Roger Porter, who was -- or, I should say,Robert Porter, who was the president's staff(88)
罗杰波特,谁,或者说,我应该说,罗伯特波特,谁是总统的工作人员

secretary with scandal around that departure.(89)
那个离开的丑闻秘书。

What is this sense right now inside the WhiteHouse?(90)
现在在白宫内部有什么感觉?

ROBERT COSTA: Well, Judy, when I told youit was season two was the phrase inside of(91)
罗伯特·科斯塔:嗯,朱迪,当我告诉你这是第二季是里面的短语

the West Wing, I wasn't joking.(92)
西翼,我不是在开玩笑。

That's what officials say.(93)
这是官员说的。

In fact, they say that the Tillerson departurecould be one of several departures this week,(94)
事实上,他们说,蒂勒森的出发可能是本周几次出发之一,

not only Tillerson's aide at the State Department,but you have the president tonight, as he's(95)
不仅蒂勒森在国务院的助手,而且今晚你有总统,就像他一样

in California, thinking about Secretary Shulkinat the Department of Veterans Affairs.(96)
在加利福尼亚州,想到退伍军人事务部的舒尔金秘书。

He's been struggling with different publicrelations crises in recent weeks.(97)
最近几周他一直在处理不同的公关危机。

The president is looking at perhaps makingsome changes there.(98)
总统正在研究可能在那里做一些改变。

And you see people inside of the White Houseon edge about their own positions.(99)
而且你看到白宫内部的人处于他们自己的位置边缘。

The president is interviewing people to takeover Gary Cohn's job.(100)
总统正在采访人们接管加里科恩的工作。

A lot of tumult, a lot of change on the horizon.(101)
很多骚乱,在地平线上的很多变化。

JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Josh Lederman, as someonewho covers the State Department and certainly(102)
JUDY WOODRUFF:Josh Lederman,当然是担任国务院的人员

keeps his eye on the White House, how doesall this look to people in the administration(103)
他一直关注着白宫,所有这些对于政府中的人来说都是如何看待的

from the other agencies, from the State Department,from the CIA, and so on?(104)
来自其他机构,国务院,中央情报局等?

JOSH LEDERMAN: There's an interesting dynamicright now at the State Department, where they're(105)
JOSH LEDERMAN:现在在国务院有一个有趣的动态,他们在那里

breathing a sigh of relief, broadly, becausemany of the 75,000 people who work for the(106)
广泛地呼吸一口气,因为75,000人中有很多人在为这项工作而工作

State Department were not big fans of Tillerson,because he came in wanting to restructure(107)
国务院并不是蒂勒森的大粉丝,因为他想进行重组

the agency, wanting its budget cut, wantingmuch fewer people working there, and keeping(108)
该机构希望削减预算,希望在那里工作的人数少得多,并保持下去

himself very isolated from the diplomaticcorps.(109)
他自己与外交使团很分离。

So, on the one hand, they're relieved thatthat era is over, but there is a lot of trepidation(110)
所以,一方面,他们感到宽慰的是,那个时代已经结束了,但是还是有很多的不安

about whether Pompeo will be better on thatfront or whether he will be equally or even(111)
关于Pompeo在这方面是否会变得更好,或者他会平等还是平等

more hostile towards traditional Americandiplomacy, soft power, and the things that(112)
更加怀念传统的美国外交,软实力和那些东西

State Department and other agencies that itwork with tends to work on.(113)
国务院和与之合作的其他机构往往都在努力。

JUDY WOODRUFF: And finally, Robert Costa,is there a read on that, a clear read on what(114)
JUDY WOODRUFF:最后,罗伯特科斯塔,有没有关于这方面的解读,清楚了解了什么

Pompeo will represent from the White House?(115)
Pompeo将代表白宫?

ROBERT COSTA: Pompeo's going to representPresident Trump's point of view, plain and(116)
罗伯特·科斯塔:庞培将代表特朗普总统的观点,平淡无奇

simple.(117)
简单。

Tillerson came in as this longtime executivewho had his own view of the world, thought(118)
想到这个长期执行长官,他有自己的世界观,蒂勒森进来了

he could help manage that portfolio, and thentranslate it to the president and communicate(119)
他可以帮助管理该组合,然后将其翻译成总裁并进行沟通

his views.(120)
他的看法。

What the president wants is a blunt enforcerfor the Trumpian view of the world.(121)
总统想要的是对Trumpian世界观的直率执行者。

That's what he's going to get in Mike Pompeo.(122)
这就是他将要在Mike Pompeo获得的。

JUDY WOODRUFF: All right, gentlemen, on thisday of a whole lot of news, Robert Costa with(123)
JUDY WOODRUFF:好的,先生们,在这一天的大量新闻中,罗伯特·科斯塔带着

The Washington Post, Josh Lederman with theAP, we thank you both.(124)
华盛顿邮报,Josh Lederman和AP,我们都感谢你们。

ROBERT COSTA: Thank you.(125)
ROBERT COSTA:谢谢。

JOSH LEDERMAN: Thanks a lot.(126)
JOSH LEDERMAN:非常感谢。

JUDY WOODRUFF: And we will take a deeper lookat the end of the Tillerson era, and its implications,(127)
JUDY WOODRUFF:我们将深入研究蒂勒森时代的结束及其影响,

after the news summary.(128)
消息总结后。


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