Shields and Brooks on Trump’s ‘s***hole’ comments, ‘Fire and Fury’ fallout
2018-01-12 00:00:00


JUDY WOODRUFF: The first year of the Trumppresidency has been marked by moments of controversy(1)
朱迪·伍德拉夫:特朗普总统的第一年里出现了争议的时刻

and remarks that regularly drew some sharpcriticism.(2)
和言论经常画一些尖锐的批评。

This week brings perhaps one of the most strikingexamples yet, and again spotlights Mr. Trump's(3)
本周带来了也许是最显着的例子之一着呢,聚光灯再次特朗普先生

views on race.(4)
种族的看法。

That brings us to the analysis of Shieldsand Brooks.(5)
这给我们带来了盾牌和布鲁克斯的分析。

That's syndicated columnist Mark Shields andNew York Times columnist David Brooks.(6)
这是专栏作家马克盾牌和纽约时报专栏作家大卫·布鲁克斯。

Welcome, gentlemen.(7)
欢迎光临,先生们。

MARK SHIELDS: Judy.(8)
标示防护罩:朱迪。

JUDY WOODRUFF: So, it's a tough subject, Mark.(9)
朱迪·伍德拉夫:所以,这是一个艰难的课题,马克。

We have been talking about it for much ofthis program, interviewed the ambassador from(10)
我们一直在谈论它的大部分这个程序的,从采访大使

Haiti earlier.(11)
海地早。

What's your takeaway from what happened inthat meeting yesterday with the president(12)
什么是从什么昨天在该次会议上发生的事情与总统的外卖

and the members of the Senate?(13)
和参议院的成员?

MARK SHIELDS: Judy, first of all, revealing,and revealing at several levels.(14)
标示防护罩:朱迪,首先,揭示,并揭示在几个级别。

I have no doubt the president said it.(15)
我毫不怀疑,总统说了出来。

There were six Republicans in the room.(16)
有六名共和党人在房间里。

Lindsey Graham has confirmed it basicallyto two other Republicans, Jeff Flake of Arizona(17)
格拉汉姆已经基本证实了它与其他两名共和党亚利桑那州的杰夫片状

and Tim Scott, his colleague from South Carolina.(18)
和蒂姆·斯科特,他从南卡罗来纳州的同事。

Everybody else has gone mute on the subject,showing moral cowardice, when addressing this.(19)
其他人都已经静音的主题,表现出道德懦弱,解决这一时。

Even Mitch McConnell, the voluble Senate majorityleader, is mute.(20)
即使麦康奈尔时,口若悬河参议院多数党领袖,是静音。

And so it's really sort of tragic.(21)
所以它的真是那种惨烈。

It's one thing, Judy, when Donald Trump usesPocahontas to attack or taunt one senator,(22)
这是一两件事,朱迪,当唐纳德·特朗普使用风中奇缘攻击或嘲讽一个参议员,

Elizabeth Warren.(23)
沃伦。

This, quite frankly, is beyond that.(24)
这,很坦率地说,是超出。

I mean, this is racial.(25)
我的意思是,这是种族歧视。

It's racist.(26)
这是种族主义。

It is.(27)
它是。

And for Paul Ryan to call it unhelpful orunfortunate, this shows the moral cowardice(28)
而对于保罗瑞安调用它无益或不幸,这说明道德懦弱

of the Republicans in response to it.(29)
的共和党人响应于它。

I mean, this is a man who thrives on beingdivisive, insists on being divisive.(30)
我的意思是,这是一个男人谁兴旺是分裂,坚持做分裂。

We now have the lowest unemployment rate in17 years, good economic news, as you reported(31)
我们现在有17年来最低的失业率,良好的经济消息,为您报道

earlier in the show, and yet he remains miredin the mid-30s, where a great majority of(32)
早在演出,但他在30年代中期,仍然深陷其中绝大多数

people do not think he's honest, do not thinkhe's level-headed.(33)
人们不认为他是诚实的,不认为他的头脑清醒。

And it's a tragedy for country, for the relations,and most of all an indictment, a serious indictment,(34)
而且它是一个国家的悲剧,对于关系,最重要的起诉书,一个严重的指控,

of this presidency.(35)
这个总统。

JUDY WOODRUFF: How are you reading, David,what happened, what he said?(36)
朱迪·伍德拉夫:你是如何阅读,大卫,发生了什么事,他说了什么?

DAVID BROOKS: Yes, well, I think it's prettyclearly racist.(37)
戴维·布鲁克斯:是的,很好,我认为这是非常清楚的种族主义者。

It fits into a pattern that we have seen sincethe beginning of his career, maybe through(38)
它适合,因为他的职业生涯的开始,我们已经看到了一个模式,也许通过

his father's career, frankly.(39)
他父亲的事业,坦率地说。

There's been a consistency, pattern of harshjudgment against black and brown people.(40)
还有的是对黑人和棕色人苛刻判断的一致性,模式。

And so he's at it again.(41)
因此,他在再次感受。

And I guess I'm reminded first just the wayit's rotting the Republican Party.(42)
我猜我想起最初只是它的腐烂共和党的方式。

This is the one thing Republicans -- theycan tolerate a lot of things in Donald Trump,(43)
这是一件事共和党人 - 他们可以忍受很多东西在唐纳德·特朗普,

but the white identity politics, the racialpolitics, that's just a cancer.(44)
但白色的身份政治,种族政治,这只是一个癌症。

And that's the one thing they can't tolerate,but they are -- seem to be tolerating.(45)
这就是今天的一件事,他们无法容忍的,但他们是 - 似乎容忍。

My other thought is, we have been with thisguy so long, we forget what, like, a normal,(46)
我的另一个想法是,我们一直在跟这个家伙这么久了,我们忘记了什么一样,正常的,

admirable political leader or human beinglooks like.(47)
令人钦佩的政治领袖或人类的模样。

And so a normal, admirable human being iscurious about the world, and is sort of interested(48)
所以正常的,令人钦佩的人是对世界充满好奇,而且是那种兴趣

in different cultures.(49)
在不同的文化。

El Salvador, Haiti, Nigeria, they're interesting.(50)
萨尔瓦多,海地,尼日利亚,他们是有趣的。

Has compassion for people from around theworld.(51)
有来自世界各地的人们的同情。

It's hard to live in this country and nothave admiration and compassion for the immigrants(52)
很难生活在这个国家并没有对移民的敬佩和同情

who come here from Africa, from El Salvador,from Haiti, and like the ambassador we just(53)
谁到这里来来自非洲,萨尔瓦多,海地,像大使我们只是

saw.(54)
锯。

That story -- you meet that story every week.(55)
这个故事 - 你每周都满足这个故事。

And so to not have any of that normal humancompassion or curiosity go through the guy's(56)
因此我想不会有任何正常的人同情或好奇的经过家伙的

head is part of the deeper character flawhere that we have apparently learned to tolerate.(57)
头是更深层次的性格缺陷的一部分,在这里,我们显然已经学会了忍受。

JUDY WOODRUFF: So, David says it's rottingthe Republican Party, Mark.(58)
朱迪·伍德拉夫:那么,大卫说,它的腐烂共和党,马克。

What -- is it doing damage to the country?(59)
什么 - 是做给国内的伤害?

MARK SHIELDS: Yes, it is, Judy.(60)
标示防护罩:是的,这是朱迪。

Whoever the next president -- I assume thatpresident will be elected in 2020 -- faces(61)
谁下一任总统 - 我认为总统将在2020年当选 - 面孔

a formidable task of repairing relations,of repairing the United States' reputation,(62)
修复关系,修复美国的声誉的一项艰巨的任务,

of just healing wounds both at home and abroad.(63)
刚刚愈合无论在国内和国外的伤口。

Just to add one point to what David made -- andI agree with it -- before I became a leading(64)
只是一个点添加到什么大卫 - 我同意它 - 在我成为一个领先

pundit and David's colleague here...(65)
评论家大卫的同事在这里...

(LAUGHTER)
MARK SHIELDS: ... I used to do political campaigns.(66)
标示防护罩:......我用来做政治运动。

I worked for Senator J. William Fulbright,former chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations(67)
我曾为参议员J·威廉·福布莱特,参议院外交关系委员会前主席

Committee, in his last campaign in 1974 inArkansas.(68)
委员会在阿肯色州,1974年他的最后一次战役。

He was a man who was not falsely modest.(69)
他是一个人,谁是不是假谦虚。

He'd been president of the University of Arkansasat the age of 34, a Rhodes Scholar, and the(70)
他一直在34岁,罗兹奖学金阿肯色大学的校长,和

Fulbright scholarship program was his creation.(71)
富布赖特奖学金计划是他的创作。

And in talking one night about presidentswith whom he had served, not under, whom he(72)
而在谈到一个晚上约总统与他曾担任,没有下,就是他

had served -- with whom he had served, six,and he said, of John Kennedy, he said, "Whenever(73)
曾担任 - 与他曾担任,六,和他说,约翰·肯尼迪的,他说,“每当

I went to the White House when John Kennedywas president, I was proud as an American(74)
我去了白宫当约翰·肯尼迪担任总统,我作为一个美国人骄傲

that he was my president."(75)
他是我的总统“。

I cannot believe anybody, irrespective ofhow partisan they are, how devoted they are(76)
我不能相信任何人,无论他们是多么党派,如何投入他们是

to the Republican side, could say that theyfeel proud that Donald Trump is the president(77)
在共和党方面,可以说,他们感到自豪的是,唐纳德·特朗普是总统

or their president or our president.(78)
或者他们的总统和我们的总统。

I think it does damage to the country, doesdamage to the office, and it does damage to(79)
我认为它确实对国家的损害,造成伤害到了办公室,和它破坏

the national spirit.(80)
民族精神。

DAVID BROOKS: Yes.(81)
戴维·布鲁克斯:是的。

And for the Republicans, A, for all evangelicalleaders, the treatment of the refugee, and(82)
而对于共和党,A,所有的福音派领袖,难民的待遇,

the poor, the outsider, that's not -- theBible is not ambiguous about that.(83)
穷人,在外人看来,这不是 - 圣经一点也不含糊有关。

And Donald Trump is certainly against thatspirit.(84)
而唐纳德·特朗普无疑是对这种精神。

For the party, there's a more specific problem,which is they have become a pretty anti-immigrant(85)
为党,有一个更具体的问题,这是他们已经成为一个漂亮的反移民

party.(86)
派对。

And there are decent, normal human beingsand admirable people like Senator Tom Cotton(87)
而且有体面,正常的人以及类似参议员汤姆棉可爱的人

who wants to sharply cut immigration.(88)
谁愿意大幅削减移民。

And they think they can divide their viewson immigration, which are purely policy views,(89)
而且他们认为他们可以把他们对移民的看法,这是纯粹的政策的看法,

from the white identity, racial undertonesthat Donald Trump has now permanently -- or(90)
从白色的身份,种族意味的是唐纳德·特朗普现在有永久 - 或

not permanently -- but has taken into thisparty.(91)
不是永久 - 但考虑到这个派对。

And that is not possible.(92)
而这是不可能的。

If you want to restrict immigration, whichis a legitimate point of view -- I disagree(93)
如果你想限制移民,这是鉴于有效的论点 - 我不同意

with it, but it is a legitimate point of view-- somebody like Tom Cotton has an extra burden(94)
有了它,但它的观点合法的一点 - 像汤姆棉花某人有一个额外的负担

to rise up against what Donald Trump said,to show, hey, restricting immigration is not(95)
奋起反抗什么唐纳德·特朗普说,展示,哎,限制移民是不

synonymous with bigotry.(96)
代名词偏执。

And if he doesn't do that, then whatever hispolicy views will always be tainted by the(97)
如果他没有做到这一点,那么无论他的政策观点总是会被污染

sense that there's an aroma of bigotry aroundit.(98)
感觉到有它周围的顽固的香气。

JUDY WOODRUFF: I mean, as far as -- but, asfar as we know, he hasn't said anything to(99)
朱迪·伍德拉夫:我的意思是,只要 - 但是,据我们所知,他没有说什么

dispute -- or to confirm or dispute.(100)
争议 - 或确认或争议。

MARK SHIELDS: No, he made a statement today,he and David Perdue of Georgia, who were two(101)
标示防护罩:不,他今天做了发言,他和格鲁吉亚的大卫·珀杜,谁是两个

of the six Republicans at the meeting.(102)
在会议的六个共和党人。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Saying they couldn't remember.(103)
朱迪·伍德拉夫:说他们不记得。

MARK SHIELDS: Specifically couldn't remember.(104)
标示防护罩:具体不记得。

So, I would say these are two people who probablyneed medical attention, if they were in a(105)
所以,我会说这是两个人谁可能需要医疗照顾,如果他们在一个

meeting less than 24 hours ago.(106)
满足不到24小时前。

(LAUGHTER)
MARK SHIELDS: And Lindsey Graham and everybodyelse there seems to remember it, but they(107)
标示防护罩:和Lindsey Graham和其他人似乎记住它,但他们

don't remember it.(108)
不记得了。

JUDY WOODRUFF: But this comes at a time wehave got these contrasting, some would say(109)
朱迪·伍德拉夫:但这是以我们已经得到了这些对比时,有些人会说

contrasting, views of the president this week.(110)
对比,享有总统这个星期。

Mark, you had the Michael Wolff book.(111)
马克,你有迈克尔·沃尔夫的书。

We have talked about that.(112)
我们已经谈过这个问题。

We talked about it with last week, which portrayswith just about the most negative adjectives,(113)
我们谈论它与上周,这与只是最消极形容词描绘,

descriptions you can possibly imagine, themost charitable one being that he's just bouncing(114)
你所能想象的描述,最慈善之一是,他只是反弹

around the White House, doesn't know whathe's doing.(115)
在白宫附近,不知道自己在做什么。

But then the next day, the president showsup at this meeting with Congress on immigration,(116)
但随后的第二天,总统显示了在与国会本次会议上的移民,

and he looks like he's in charge, he's carryingon a conversation.(117)
他看起来他是负责人,他的账面上的对话。

Do we just set that aside?(118)
难道我们只是设置预留?

And, I mean, how do we interpret this president?(119)
而且,我的意思是,我们如何解释这个总统?

MARK SHIELDS: I rarely take issue with a questionyou pose.(120)
标示防护罩:我很少再跟你提出一个问题。

I didn't think he seemed to be conversant.(121)
我没想到他似乎是精通。

I mean, he was there.(122)
我的意思是,他在那里。

He wasn't unpleasant.(123)
他不是不愉快。

And he certainly spoke in terms of love, asfar as the immigration law is concerned.(124)
他肯定在爱情方面讲,只要移民法而言。

But, Judy, he didn't know what was going on.(125)
但是,朱迪,他不知道发生了什么事情。

He was ready -- and it's a little bit likethe pillow, the last person whose head was(126)
他准备好了 - 它就像枕头一点点,最后一个人,其头部呈

on it leaves the impression.(127)
它给人的印象。

I mean, he was ready to endorse Dianne Feinsteinon a clean DACA bill, until Kevin McCarthy,(128)
我的意思是,他准备赞同范士丹在干净DACA法案,直到凯文·麦卡锡,

the House Republican leader, said, we can'tdo it.(129)
众议院共和党领袖说,我们不能这样做。

And then, of course, he joined that.(130)
然后,当然,他加入了。

And it wasn't an impressive performance.(131)
而且这不是一个令人印象深刻的表现。

It was a performance that didn't show a meannessand was obviously intended to rebut the charges(132)
正是这样的表现并没有表现出吝啬,很明显意在反驳指控

in the Wolff book that he was totally outof touch.(133)
在沃尔夫的书,他是完全脱节的。

DAVID BROOKS: Yes.(134)
戴维·布鲁克斯:是的。

Well, I think it's possible to fervently opposeDonald Trump and still not believe in fairy(135)
嗯,我认为这是可能的热切反对唐纳德特朗普,仍然不相信童话

tales.(136)
故事。

Like, the fairy tale is, it's like the madnessof King George in there, that he's just -- he's(137)
一样,童话,就像乔治王的在那里疯狂,他只是 - 他是

like a child, he can't do anything, he can'tremember anything, he's bouncing off the walls,(138)
像个孩子,他不能做任何事情,他不记得任何事情,他弹起墙壁,

he's watching TV, screaming at Twitter.(139)
他看电视,在Twitter的尖叫。

And, frankly, if you watched his Twitter feed,you would have that impression.(140)
而且,坦率地说,如果你看了他的Twitter的饲料,你将有这样的印象。

But when you talk to people who have goneand had meetings with him, a lot of them,(141)
但是,当你要向谁倾诉离我而去了会见他,他们中的很多人,

he's surprisingly affable.(142)
他令人惊讶的和蔼可亲。

He's sort of normal, runs the meeting OK.(143)
他是那种正常的,主持会议确定。

And so it's possible to believe that, that,yes, he's not a total basket case, he is running(144)
所以有可能认为,是,是的,他不是一个总废人,他正在运行

a White House that is churning out policies,and still believe that he is guilty of bigotry,(145)
所培养出的政策,仍然白宫相信他是有罪的偏见,

of being ignorant.(146)
因不知道。

And so it's possible to believe both things.(147)
所以它可能认为两件事。

And I think we saw both things this week inDonald Trump.(148)
而且我认为,我们这个星期在唐纳德·特朗普看到两件事。

But he's not a total monster.(149)
但他不是一个怪物总数。

He's not a blithering child.(150)
他不是胡扯的孩子。

But neither is he up to the standards thatwe would expect in a president.(151)
但无论是他达到我们希望在一个总统的标准。

MARK SHIELDS: Yes, he's inflicting great damageupon this country, and he will leave in his(152)
标示防护罩:是的,他在这个国家造成巨大的伤害,他会在离开他

wake great disenchantment, disillusionment.(153)
醒来伟大觉醒,幻灭。

There's nobody who's encouraged to get involvedin government, in public service.(154)
还有谁是鼓励涉足政府,公共服务的人。

He calls nobody to a higher commitment, tothe public good.(155)
他呼吁任何人到一个更高的承诺,对公益事业。

And he knows nothing.(156)
他什么都不知道。

I mean, at that meeting, he's terminally incurious.(157)
我的意思是,在那次会议上,他的终末漠不关心。

I mean, this is a man who ran on immigrationas his issue in 2016, ran successfully on(158)
我的意思是,这是一个男人谁在2016年移民作为他的问题跑,上运行成功

it, and is totally unconversant with the elementsof the issue.(159)
它,是有问题的内容完全unconversant。

DAVID BROOKS: I don't deny any of that.(160)
戴维·布鲁克斯:我不否认任何。

MARK SHIELDS: OK.(161)
标示防护罩:OK。

(LAUGHTER)
JUDY WOODRUFF: All right, well, one thingthe White House is saying this week -- and(162)
朱迪·伍德拉夫:好了,好了,有一件事白宫说这个星期 - 和

the president brings it up every chance hegets, David -- is the economy.(163)
总统提起这件事,每一个机会,他得到,大卫 - 是经济问题。

And you did have some companies this weeksaying, well, we're doing more hiring.(164)
而你确实有一些公司本周说,好,我们正在做更多的招聘。

Wal-Mart raised their minimum wage.(165)
沃尔玛上调了最低工资标准。

They have given people bonuses.(166)
他们已经给了人们奖金。

A number of other countries (sic) are doingthat.(167)
其他一些国家(原文如此)都这样做。

They're -- some are interpreting this as,this is about the tax cut.(168)
他们 - 一些人解释这是,这是关于减税。

Does the president deserve any credit whenthe economy -- I mean, the Dow Jones industrial(169)
请问总统值得任何信贷在经济 - 我的意思是,道琼斯工业

average keeps shooting up.(170)
平均保持投篮命中率高达。

Where does credit go?(171)
哪里信用去了?

DAVID BROOKS: Yes, I rarely link a presidentto credit in the economy while they're in(172)
戴维·布鲁克斯:是的,我很少总统的经济链接到信贷,而他们在

office.(173)
办公室。

You can have effects as president that willhave downstream effects years later, but there's(174)
你可以有效果作为总统,将有下行的影响年后的今天,但有

no short one-to-one.(175)
没有短一对之一。

With this tax plan, if you give companiesa big windfall, which is what they got, they(176)
有了这个税收计划,如果你给公司一个很大的意外收获,这是他们得到了什么,他们

are going to have internal decisions.(177)
将会有内部决策。

Well, what do we do to help our company withthis money?(178)
那么,我们该做些什么来帮助我们的公司,这笔钱?

And some will say, well, let's give it tothe shareholders.(179)
而有些人会说,好吧,让我们给它的股东。

Some will say, let's invest it in R&D.(180)
有人会说,让我们投资它在R&d。

Some will say, you know, we have got a turnoverrate among our employees.(181)
有人会说,你知道,我们有我们的员工之间的周转率。

Let's raise their salaries, increase theirbenefits.(182)
让我们提高工资,增加效益。

And so Wal-Mart tended to do that.(183)
所以沃尔玛倾向于这样做。

And so I think we will see -- and there willbe positive effects.(184)
因此,我认为我们将看到的 - 而且会有积极的影响。

You give people money, they are going to spendit in some way.(185)
你给人家钱,他们要花费它以某种方式。

And so we could see an increase in R&D, Ihope.(186)
因此,我们可以看到R&d增加,我希望。

And I hope we will see an increase in wages.(187)
我希望我们会看到增加工资。

Does that mean the tax bill dramatically increasedgrowth overall?(188)
这是否意味着税收法案大大提高整体的增长?

Well, the consensus among economists, thatit did, but pretty little.(189)
那么,经济学家们的共识,它做了,但是漂亮的小。

And so I think you give credit where is due.(190)
所以,我觉得你给予信贷,到期。

It's not surprising to me that some companieswould react in this way.(191)
这并不奇怪,我认为一些企业将通过这种方式作出反应。

But I wouldn't expect to see a total jumpin growth overall.(192)
但我不希望看到在整体增长,总跳跃。

MARK SHIELDS: Wal-Mart raised its minimumstart at $11, which is good.(193)
标示防护罩:沃尔玛在$ 11提高了最低启动,这是很好的。

I mean, it's better than it was.(194)
我的意思是,这是比它更好了。

I mean, it's not -- no one's living in cloveron $11 an hour, but that's a positive.(195)
我的意思是,它不是 - 没有一个人的生活在$每小时11三叶草,但是这是一个积极的。

Any time any company raises benefits and salary,with the income and economic disparity we(196)
任何时候,任何一家公司提高福利和工资,随着收入和经济差距,我们

have in this country, is good.(197)
在这个国家,还是不错的。

The same day, they announced a closing of63 Sam's warehouse.(198)
同一天,他们宣布63山姆仓库的关闭。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Right.(199)
朱迪·伍德拉夫:对。

MARK SHIELDS: And some on the very day thatthey announced them.(200)
标示防护罩:有的就在那一天,他们宣布他们。

And it's a -- so you take the plus.(201)
这是一个 - 所以你需要加。

And Republicans, beginning with Speaker Ryan,say, oh, it's all the tax bill that's responsible(202)
和共和党人,用喇叭瑞安开始,说,哦,这是所有的税收法案,是负责任的

for this.(203)
为了这。

And I think that's a question that goes bothways.(204)
我认为这是一个问题,这是双向的。

I mean, this is good.(205)
我的意思是,这是件好事。

Bonuses are the cheap way out.(206)
奖金都出了廉价的方式。

Bonuses is a way of doing it one...(207)
奖金是做一个的方式...

JUDY WOODRUFF: Because it's one shot, yes.(208)
朱迪·伍德拉夫:因为它是一个镜头,是的。

MARK SHIELDS: One shot.(209)
标示防护罩:一杆。

It's not an increase.(210)
这不是增加。

It's not -- it doesn't -- I mean, it's betterto get a bonus than not get a bonus, but it's(211)
这不是 - 它没有 - 我的意思是,这是更好地得到奖金比没有拿到奖金,但它的

not going to be there six months from now.(212)
不打算从现在开始在那里六个月。

So, I think the jury is not even in, let aloneout, on the tax bill.(213)
所以,我认为陪审团甚至没有,更别说出来,在税单。

(LAUGHTER)
JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, we have some time towatch what happens.(214)
朱迪·伍德拉夫:嗯,我们有一些时间来看看会发生什么。

MARK SHIELDS: We do.(215)
标示防护罩:我们这样做。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Mark Shields, David Brooks,thank you both.(216)
朱迪·伍德拉夫:马克·希尔兹,大卫·布鲁克斯,谢谢两位。

MARK SHIELDS: Thank you.(217)
标示防护罩:谢谢。


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