The reporters behind Harvey Weinstein story on how it was 'just the beginning' for MeToo
2019-09-10 00:00:00


JUDY WOODRUFF: Harvey Weinstein was a titanof the film industry, the prolific and powerful(1)
JUDY WOODRUFF:Harvey Weinstein是电影界的巨头,多产而强大

Hollywood media mogul behind Oscar-winningpictures like "Shakespeare in Love" and "Pulp(2)
好莱坞媒体大亨背后获得奥斯卡获奖作品,如“莎士比亚恋爱”和“纸浆”

Fiction."(3)
小说。”

But on October 5, 2017, all that came crashingdown.(4)
但是在2017年10月5日,一切都崩溃了。

On that day, a New York Times investigationled by reporters Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey,(5)
那天,由记者Jodi Kantor和Megan Twohey领导的纽约时报调查,

was published.(6)
发表了。

It exposed for the first time a decades-longtrail of alleged abuse toward actors, former(7)
它首次曝光了长达数十年的涉嫌滥用演员的痕迹

employees and others.(8)
员工和其他人。

This included allegations of sexual assault,harassment and a coordinated campaign of intimidation(9)
其中包括性侵犯,骚扰和协调的恐吓活动指控

meant to keep women silent.(10)
意在让女人保持沉默。

Kantor and Twohey reporting on Weinstein markeda milestone in the cultural moment known as(11)
Kantor和Twohey对Weinstein的报道标志着被称为文化时刻的里程碑

the MeToo movement.(12)
MeToo运动。

In their book, "She Said," which is out today,Kantor and Twohey reveal the inner workings(13)
在今天出版的“She Said”一书中,Kantor和Twohey揭示了内在的运作方式

of their investigation.(14)
他们的调查。

Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey join me now fromNew York.(15)
Jodi Kantor和Megan Twohey现在和我一起来自纽约。

Thank you to both of you for joining us.(16)
感谢你们两位加入我们。

Congratulations on the book.(17)
恭喜这本书。

And, Jodi, I'm going to start with you.(18)
而且,乔迪,我将从你开始。

The two of you did help change the landscape,the cultural landscape in this country, when(19)
你们两个确实帮助改变了这个国家的景观和文化景观

it comes to how women are treated in termsof sexual misconduct.(20)
谈到女性在性行为不端方面的待遇。

But what I want to ask you is, why do youthink women before now have not been willing(21)
但我想问你的是,为什么你认为女性在此之前并不愿意

to talk about these kinds of things?(22)
谈谈这些事情?

JODI KANTOR, Co-Author, "She Said": To behonest, in our experience, women sometimes(23)
JODI KANTOR,共同作者,“她说”:说实话,根据我们的经验,女性有时候

still have a really hard time talking aboutthese things.(24)
谈论这些事情仍然很难。

Even though MeToo has certainly changed things,and hopefully some of the stigma is gone,(25)
虽然MeToo肯定改变了一些东西,但希望一些耻辱感消失了,

women still have a pretty tough time comingforward.(26)
女性仍然很难挺身而出。

And there are two stories we tell in the bookabout this.(27)
我们在书中讲述了两个故事。

One is about recent stories.(28)
一个是关于最近的故事。

One of the figures in our book is a womannamed Rowena Chiu, who is really a kind of(29)
我们书中的一个人物是一个名叫Rowena Chiu的女人,她真的是一个

central Weinstein victim, because there wasso much cover-up in -- of her particular allegations.(30)
温斯坦中央的受害者,因为她的特别指控掩盖了这么多。

And we approached Rowena in the summer of2017.(31)
我们在2017年夏天接触了Rowena。

She wouldn't answer our messages or our phonecalls.(32)
她不会回复我们的留言或电话。

So, we had to show up and knock on her door.(33)
所以,我们不得不出现并敲门。

And we reached only her husband, who knewnothing about these allegations.(34)
我们只找到了她的丈夫,她对这些指控一无所知。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Right.(35)
JUDY WOODRUFF:对。

JODI KANTOR: It turned out she had never toldher husband.(36)
JODI KANTOR:事实证明她从未告诉过她的丈夫。

And for two years, we kept in touch with herbehind the scenes.(37)
两年来,我们在幕后与她保持联系。

She wouldn't even speak to us until a fewmonths ago.(38)
几个月前她甚至都不跟我们说话。

And, finally, she went on the record in ourbook, and it took two years of discussion(39)
最后,她在我们的书中记录了,并且花了两年的时间进行讨论

to get there.(40)
到那里。

And then I think the other story we tell that'sso indicative is the saga of Christine Blasey(41)
然后我认为我们告诉的另一个故事就是Christine Blasey的故事

Ford coming forward last summer and the behind-the-scenesstory of that testimony, which is a really(42)
去年夏天福特挺身而出,以及这个证词的幕后故事,这真的是真的

difficult story full with tough decisionsabout whether or not to come forward publicly.(43)
困难的故事充满了关于是否公开出面的艰难决定。

JUDY WOODRUFF: I want to get to some of theinvestigative reporting that you did.(44)
JUDY WOODRUFF:我想谈谈你所做的一些调查性报道。

And you two, you knocked on hundreds of doors.(45)
而你们两个,你敲了几百个门。

You sent hundreds of e-mails and texts.(46)
您发送了数百封电子邮件和文本。

Megan, what does it take?(47)
梅根,需要什么?

What did you do, do you think, that brokethis story open, when others hadn't been able(48)
你认为,当你的其他人无法做到这一点时,你做了什么呢?

to?(49)
至?

MEGAN TWOHEY, Co-Author, "She Said": Anotherone of the real challenges in doing this reporting(50)
MEGAN TWOHEY,共同作者,“她说”:这一报告的另一个真正挑战

is that many of the women who had been victimizedby Harvey had also been legally silenced by(51)
许多被哈维成为受害者的女性也被法律上的沉默所困扰

him through these secret settlements.(52)
他通过这些秘密定居点。

These have applied to not just victims ofHarvey Weinstein, but victims of sexual harassment(53)
这些不仅适用于Harvey Weinstein的受害者,也适用于性骚扰的受害者

and sexual assault across the country.(54)
和全国各地的性侵犯。

So when a reporter comes knocking -- I willtell you a story.(55)
所以当记者来敲门时 - 我会告诉你一个故事。

There was a woman who had worked for Weinsteinin 1990 and had been allegedly sexually assaulted(56)
1990年曾有一名女子曾在温斯坦工作过,据称遭到性侵犯

by him.(57)
由他。

And we tracked her down to a family home herein New York, just outside New York, knocked(58)
我们追踪她到了纽约郊外的一个家庭住宅,敲了敲门

on her door.(59)
在她的门上。

She opened it.(60)
她打开了它。

She had a young daughter by her side lookingup.(61)
她抬起一个小女儿。

And she said: "I have been waiting for thisknock on my door for 25 years."(62)
她说:“我一直在等待敲门25年。”

And yet because of this secret settlementthat she had been required to sign, she was(63)
然而,由于这个秘密解决方案,她被要求签署,她是

terrified of speaking out.(64)
说出来吓坏了。

So this was just one of the challenges thatwe faced in the course of our investigation.(65)
所以这只是我们在调查过程中遇到的挑战之一。

But we also realized that these secret settlementsthat have been used to cover up misconduct(66)
但我们也意识到这些秘密的解决方案已被用来掩盖不端行为

for so many years is that, if we're able topiece together the financial trail of payoffs,(67)
这么多年来,如果我们能够把收益的财务轨迹拼凑起来,

that it would actually help illuminate themisconduct.(68)
它实际上有助于阐明不端行为。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, the work that goes intoinvestigative reporting comes through loud(69)
JUDY WOODRUFF:嗯,调查报告的工作是大声的

and clear in your writing in the book.(70)
在书中写清楚。

Jodi Kantor, what did it take to get prominentfigures like Gwyneth Paltrow, stars, movies(71)
Jodi Kantor,为了获得像Gwyneth Paltrow,明星,电影等知名人物所做的一切

stars?(72)
星星?

I'm assuming, without them, without theirtalking, it would have been much harder to(73)
我假设,如果没有他们,没有他们的谈话,那就更难了

get other people to talk.(74)
让其他人说话。

What did it take to get them?(75)
得到它们需要什么?

JODI KANTOR: The first step was to try tofigure out how to even reach these women privately.(76)
JODI KANTOR:第一步是试图弄清楚如何私下接触这些女性。

We couldn't go through agents.(77)
我们无法通过代理商。

We couldn't go through publicists.(78)
我们无法通过公关人员。

And then there's the question of, if you doget Uma Thurman or Ashley Judd or Gwyneth(79)
然后问题是,如果你确实得到乌玛瑟曼或阿什利贾德或格温妮丝

Paltrow on the phone, what do you actuallysay to them in the first 45 seconds of the(80)
帕特洛在电话里,你在前45秒对他们说了什么

phone call the try to earn that trust?(81)
打电话试试赢得那种信任?

But, actually, things ended up working a littledifferently than you describe, which is essentially(82)
但实际上,事情的结果与你描述的有些不同,这本质上是

we realized that the Hollywood silence overHarvey Weinstein was holding.(83)
我们意识到好莱坞对Harvey Weinstein的沉默持有。

We were accumulating this stack of off-the-record,disturbing hotel room stories, but all of(84)
我们正在积累这一堆非正式的,令人不安的酒店房间故事,但所有的

these actresses were very afraid to go onthe record.(85)
这些女演员非常害怕记录在案。

So what we started doing was building a mountainof other evidence, and that mountain consisted(86)
所以我们开始做的就是建造一大堆其他证据,而那座山也是如此

of internal records, the legal and financialtrail of the settlements, a very important(87)
内部记录,定居点的法律和金融踪迹,非常重要

internal company memo.(88)
公司内部备忘录。

And it was really by having that evidencethat we were able to make the case to Ashley(89)
而且确实有证据证明我们能够向阿什利提起诉讼

Judd to get on the record, because we said:We're not putting you into a he said/she said(90)
贾德要记录在案,因为我们说:我们不是说你说他/她说

situation where you're standing here alone.(91)
你独自站在这里的情况。

We have 25 years worth of allegations documented.(92)
我们有25年的指控记录。

And that becomes a kind of basis that youcan stand on for coming forward.(93)
而这成为你可以站出来的一种基础。

JUDY WOODRUFF: And I saw that was part ofthe argument you were making to so many women.(94)
JUDY WOODRUFF:我看到这是你为这么多女人所做的争论的一部分。

You were saying: We owe it to these otherwomen because of what they have been -- have(95)
你说的是:我们欠其他女人的原因是因为他们曾经拥有过

gone through to talk now.(96)
现在谈谈了。

Megan Twohey, what about Harvey Weinsteinhimself?(97)
Megan Twohey,Harvey Weinstein本人呢?

How tough a character are we talking aboutgoing up against?(98)
我们谈论一个角色是多么强硬?

MEGAN TWOHEY: Well, one of the things thatwe realized is that, when we broke this story(99)
MEGAN TWOHEY:嗯,我们意识到的一件事是,当我们打破这个故事时

in 2017, it was really just the beginning.(100)
在2017年,它真的只是一个开始。

We had been able to connect some of the dotsabout his alleged predation going back decades(101)
我们已经能够将他所谓的掠夺行为的一些点连接起来

and how he had been able to cover it up.(102)
以及他如何能够掩盖它。

But what we were able to do with the additionalreporting for this book was to really start(103)
但是,我们能够为本书的额外报告做的就是真正开始

to pull back the curtain on the machinerythat was in place that Harvey put in place(104)
拉开哈维到位的机器上的窗帘

to try to silence his victims and try to haltour investigation.(105)
试图让受害者保持沉默并试图阻止我们的调查。

That included amassing, like, a team of veryhigh-powered attorneys, including Lisa Bloom,(106)
这包括一群非常高效的律师,包括丽莎布鲁姆,

one of the most prominent feminist attorneysin the country, who made the remarkable decision(107)
这个国家最着名的女权主义律师之一,做出了卓越的决定

to cross sides to work for him in 2016 and2017, as he was trying to fight back this(108)
在2016年和2017年跨越为他工作,因为他试图反击这一点

story.(109)
故事。

It also included Black Cube, this privateinvestigative firm made up of former Israeli(110)
它还包括Black Cube,这家私人调查公司由前以色列人组成

intelligence agents, who were basically promiseda $300,000 bonus by Weinstein if they could(111)
情报人员,如果可能的话,他们基本上承诺由温斯坦提供30万美元的奖金

succeed in stopping our investigation.(112)
成功阻止我们的调查。

JUDY WOODRUFF: Jodi, how much do you thinkthings have changed for working women as a(113)
JUDY WOODRUFF:Jodi,你认为对于职业女性而言,情况有多大变化

result of your reporting and the reportingof others on Harvey Weinstein and other prominent(114)
您的报告结果以及Harvey Weinstein和其他知名人士的报道结果

men who have been accused in the last fewyears?(115)
过去几年被指控的男人?

JODI KANTOR: Oh, what's so confounding isthat everything has changed and nothing has(116)
JODI KANTOR:哦,令人困惑的是,一切都变了,什么都没有

changed at the same time.(117)
同时改变了。

On the one hand, it really feels like we alllived through a seismic social shift.(118)
一方面,我们感觉好像都经历了地震的社会转变。

And there really is lots of evidence, rangingfrom the period of kind of mass accountability(119)
确实存在大量证据,包括大规模问责制

after the story broke, when all of these menwere fired or had to leave their jobs, to(120)
故事爆发后,当所有这些人被解雇或不得不离开工作时,到了

the fact that there are some new state laws,to the fact that corporations are taking this(121)
事实上,有一些新的州法律,公司正在采取这一点

much more seriously.(122)
更加认真。

We write in-depth about the Weinstein Company,because we try to show how this organization(123)
我们深入介绍了Weinstein公司,因为我们试图展示这个组织

was trying to protect itself, instead of protectingwomen, and, in the process, it basically destroyed(124)
我试图保护自己,而不是保护女性,并且在此过程中,它基本上被摧毁了

itself.(125)
本身。

So, on the one hand, there is all of thatchange.(126)
所以,一方面,所有这一切都发生了变化。

On the other hand, if you go into the everydayworkplace today, especially for low-income(127)
另一方面,如果你今天进入日常工作场所,特别是对于低收入人群

women, does anything feel really different?(128)
女人,有什么感觉真的不一样吗?

It's still really hard to report.(129)
报告仍然很难。

Federal sexual harassment laws are still reallyweak.(130)
联邦性骚扰法仍然很薄弱。

And I think that there's also now a lot ofcontroversy about MeToo, which can sometimes(131)
而且我认为现在也有很多关于MeToo的争议,有时候也是如此

seem like a really productive debate, andsometimes feel like just this huge argument(132)
看起来真是一场富有成效的辩论,有时候感觉就像这个巨大的争论

that's not really going anywhere.(133)
那不是真的会去任何地方。

So I think the question remains to be seen,what are all of us collectively going to do(134)
所以我认为这个问题还有待观察,我们所有人共同要做的事情

with this period that we live through?(135)
我们生活的这个时期?

What are we going to tell our grandkids aboutthis era?(136)
关于这个时代,我们要告诉孙子们什么?

Are we going to say -- are we going to beable to say, I was there when things really(137)
我们要说 - 我们是否可以说,我真的在那里

shifted, or are they going to be telling us,oh, yes, that still happens at my summer job?(138)
转移,或者他们会告诉我们,哦,是的,那仍然发生在我的暑期工作?

JUDY WOODRUFF: Very, very good question.(139)
JUDY WOODRUFF:非常非常好的问题。

And, Megan, finally, you know, Jodi just mentionedthe controversy.(140)
而且,梅根,最后,你知道,乔迪刚刚提到了争议。

You are -- one is starting to hear conversationmore and more about whether MeToo has gone(141)
你是 - 一个人开始越来越多地听到关于MeToo是否已经消失的谈话

too far, whether men have gotten swept upin this who shouldn't have been.(142)
太过分了,男人是否已经被卷入了这个本不应该的人。

How does one know what is too far?(143)
怎么知道什么是太远了?

MEGAN TWOHEY: Well, listen, I think that thereis absolute agreement by both accusers and(144)
MEGAN TWOHEY:嗯,听着,我认为控告者和控告者都有绝对的一致意见

the accused that there has not been the typeof substantial reform that can guarantee that(145)
被告人认为没有那种可以保证的实质性改革

there is a fair system by which complaintscan be made and vetted and by which people(146)
有一个公平的制度,可以通过这个制度进行投诉和审查,以及由哪些人进行审查

can determine guilt or innocence, and alsowhat accountability looks like.(147)
可以确定内疚或无罪,以及问责制是什么样的。

And so, listen, there is no question thatthere still needs to be a lot of systematic(148)
所以,听,毫无疑问,仍然需要有很多系统的

change moving forward to make sure that everybodyis adequately protected.(149)
改变前进,以确保每个人都得到充分保护。

But we, as reporters, feel like you can'treally solve a problem that you can't see.(150)
但作为记者,我们觉得你无法真正解决一个你看不到的问题。

And so we really consider it our jobs to justcontinue unearthing the facts and helping(151)
所以我们真的认为我们的工作就是继续挖掘事实并提供帮助

to bring them to light.(152)
让他们发光

JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, remarkable to hear yousay you are still reporting on this day after(153)
JUDY WOODRUFF:嗯,非常了不起,听到你说你还在报道这一天

day after day.(154)
日复一日。

Again, congratulations on the book, "She Said."(155)
再一次,祝贺这本书,“她说。”

It's Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey.(156)
这是Jodi Kantor和Megan Twohey。

Thank you both.(157)
谢谢你们俩。

JODI KANTOR: Thank you so much.(158)
JODI KANTOR:非常感谢你。

MEGAN TWOHEY: Thank you.(159)
MEGAN TWOHEY:谢谢。


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